Title says it all, so here we go.

This is not another OMGOMGOMG online poker is rigged, or I'm being cheated 'cause I can't win even though I play every hand.


I am always the one (of many of us here) trying to calm peoples fears at the table. "No, the guy playing 80% of the hands, raising every pot and losing $500 isn't a Stars shill because he has beat you the last 4 hands in a row."

And "No, Stars doesn't fix the hands so they can rake an extra .25 cents from us."

I play a lot of low limit 7 stud, anything from .50/1 to 3/6.

I am at least semi-well known as a regular at these limits.

So today I was contacted by another regular player, who was only observing the table. He was hinting around at something, and finally I had him send me an e-mail.

Cliff notes on the e-mail.

At least 20 players have been registered from the same city in Asia, although over time some have changed their city.

The players all have similar names, at least in relation to some of the other players on the list.

The player who contacted me says whenever two of the names are in the game he cannot win, though he can't say for sure what they are doing. (Not capping roll-ups or the like, most likely sharing hole cards).

He says he has contacted Stars, but they cannot find anything. I do not know what the exchange between the player and Stars was. I really didn't expect to find anything, so I didn't go into much detail with him.

But here most of the players stats, some have very few hands played so i have not included them. These are stats I have from PTStud. I hesitate to use names yet, but will do so if it looks like the right thing to do.

Note the VPIP range of the players.

Player 1) Hands played 2,340 VPIP 26% BB/100 .18

Player 2) H 9,306 V 31% BB 2.11

Player 3) H 7,186 V 30% BB 1.09

Player 4) H 3,972 V 28% BB (.22)

Player 5) H 545 V 32% BB .70

Player 6) H 1,729 V 29% BB 8.15

Player 7) H 2,171 V 29% BB (.80)

Player 8) H 582 V 27% BB (1.90)

Player 9) H 3,848 V 31% BB (2.44)

Player 10) H 255 V 28% BB (5.00)

Player 11) H 2,279 V 27% BB 10.38

Player 12) H 1,608 V 27% BB 3.50

Player 13) H 2,675 V 29% BB (.61)

Player 14) H 1,381 V 29% BB 5.08

Player 15) H 1,316 V 31% BB 2.98

Player 16) H 1,597 V 30% BB 5.98

Player 17) H 1,645 V 27% BB (1.57)

Player 18) H 3,738 V 29% BB 4.53


So there you have it--same city, same stats, similar names, and mostly winning despite playing close to 30% of their hands.

So from here...?

Do they talk, to other players or one another?

Do they take the same amount of time to bet?

Is there a pattern to what times or days they play?

Do they play the same way?

seven - As per your request I'm reading this thread even though I don't play stud and know virtually nothing about it. So I'm not sure how much help I can be.
But I do think it's kind of weird to have so many players from the same town playing the same game and style like that ASSUMING that your contention that they all registered from the same town is actually correct.

I think you might want to consider contacting Stars yourself about this and seeing what they say.

I don't know how unusual it is to have a VP in the 30 range at Stud...particularly short-handed stud which perhaps you play some also.
Obviously it's possible that they all kind of know each other and perhaps learned similar styles.
But I'm guessing there is something worth being concerned about and it's certainly possible that so many players from the same town might have some kind of hole-card sharing software that does it automatically or they might be on some AIM chat-room with each other having a good time constantly saying what they have or what they folded.


I do know that I consider Stars security and collusion detection to be pretty top-notch but I'm obviously not one that is on the inside on something like this. I could be wrong and they could completely suck at collusion-detection for all I know.
But if they did actually look into it and say that they couldn't find anything suspicious I do think that has to be given SOME amount of credit.

Not sure if you will get any more input/responses by x-posting this in the Zoo. But I think there are a lot of non-stud Stars players who never, ever, ever come to this forum who might be interested in this situation. And other Stars support people might stumble upon it a bit quicker and perhaps renew the discussion of these guys themselves.
So x-posting over there may yield some other viewpoints on this if that's something you want to do.

I assume you're talking about the Chang Le guys? There have been multiple posts on this forum about them as I recall. Some speculate that they're bots, some that they're a team, some that they're all trained by someone to have a particular style. I haven't had much interaction with them personally.

If this is the only evidence, then the only real damning thing is the same city. More than a third are losing players. That 29-31% range is not really high or really low and over that volume of hands, one can be a big winner or big loser seeing that amount of hands (there are tons of huge winners in my PT tracking who play over 40%, and losers who play 23%).

That all being said, it does seem concerning.

Posted in the zoo!

Hello everyone,

Once again, apologies for my semi-poor English.

Firstly: I am an existing member on 2+2 but have created this new account for privacy reasons and I hope the administrators can understand that there is no wrongdoing here and let me keep this account until this situation is over with, when they could delete it. I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you

So here we go.

I am the person who sent the email to sevenfold as I have done to several other players and I was not surprised to hear from all of them that they shared my thoughts and would do their utmost to help uncover a possible multi-accounting scandal.

About a year ago I voiced my concerns to Pokerstars concerning 4 individuals all registered from the same city in Asia and some having similar usernames to each other. (I wouldn’t want to start mentioning names just yet as we don’t want to trigger the wrong flags even though the city has been mentioned allready). These players were playing a similar/identical style of game to each other, multi-tabling at all levels above .5/1, for long hours every day and had a similar connection status. Furthermore, they never seemed to play at the same table although there are some exceptions. When 1 of them would join a table the existing player on that table would sit out immediately and leave before the next hand started. In addition they would all play against me or other players in the same way, as if it was the same person or at least sharing notes between them (e.g. calling down bluffers with weak hands/folding to tight players in early rounds).

Pokerstars, after carrying out their investigation, replied that those players were most definitely not bots, but just the fact that they shared the same ISP hence the similarity in their connection status and their identical disconnections. This conversation took place in the form of 10 emails back and forth in the period of around 3 months. After their final reply I gave up my pursuit in finding out what the wrongdoing was here as I had no one to turn to.

During the summer, I started noticing some new players registering from the same city with identical features as the players mentioned above, all of them using the identical 2 numbers at the end of their username. These new players would comfortably play at 10/20 games like 3 days after they registered on the site, etc.etc(as above). When the number of these new players(which I was noting down) reached to around 10 I decided to email stars again, back in October, in an angry fashion and demanded a viable explanation on what was actually going on. About 2 1/2 weeks later (the period quoted in their email for the investigation to be completed was 7-10 days) I received a reply from support who carried an investigation on only the 4 players I mentioned to them back in January stating that there is a connection between those players (something I was not told in the past) but no unethical play on their part. Sarcastically, I wrote back to them bemused that they have not even looked for other players registered from the same city after carrying on such a long investigation and forwarded them all the names I had in my notepad, plus a few others I was not positive about whether they could related. As I said previously the old users never seemed to sit down together at the same table, nor did the new ones between them, but 1 old user and 1 new user would frequently play at the same game.
Based on the following elements:

1) Best hand play, where the two players play only the better of their two hands
2) Pot building, where the two raise strategically to force a third player to pay the maximum when one of the partners holds a strong hand
3) Squeeze play, where the two raise constantly to drive others out of the pot when both hold bad hands Pokerstars once again did not find any
suspicions

Pokerstars did not find any wrongdoing once again or to my concerns that if they are related they could be sharing their hole cards information between them(which as you can imagine in a game like 7card stud would give them a great advantage against other opponents) or the fact that they could be sharing notes between them(something which is clearly stated as forbidden in the Pokerstars t&c).

The new conversation with Pokerstars took place from October last year until last week when I received their last email leading me to think that there could well be a lack in interest from Pokerstars in uncovering the whole truth behind this situation as these players keep games alive 24/7 and starting new ones, generating immense amounts of rake for the site.

I was devastated and it bothered me greatly at times as I would find myself at times sitting out of games when 2 of (these) players/player would sit at my game and I decided to inform some others and get their opinions on this. Everyone agreed and I will be directing them here on 2+2 shortly to get involved in this discussion and hopefully we can all get to the bottom of this.
I have not got my data on PT yet as I have changed computers lately and I was waiting for the new PT to come out but I am not surprised by the vpip% posted above by sevenfold.

There you have it! Apologies for the long writing but that’s about everything I have in one neat post and if necessary I shall be posting the email conversations I had with Pokerstars and other players when in need.

Edit: forgot to add that the later/newer usernames would change their city(displayed) to something different than the one they registered with at first place in a short period of time.

Your English is easy to read.
This is what caught my attention, and it's the part I'd like to see more of. At least you are getting responses from PokerStars and not being ignored.

Could we please keep this discussion in the zoo as more people will have a look at it and be able to offer their input.

thank you

The first part of this, i.e. when they were never playing at the same table, sounds a lot like the NL cash game "sweatshop" bot thing that was discussed in the zoo last year. A load of players had near identical PT stats, from the same city etc, and it turned out that they were real people playing manually, but following a script that was given to them by the leader guy, and under some circumstances they would get the leader to make a decision for them. And apparently that was perfectly legal(?).

But regarding this: 1) how do you know if you can't see the other guys folded cards?
2) and 3) - aren't these contradictory? Are they trying to get a call or a fold?
Sorry if I'm missing something there.

could you please post this here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...73#post2181973

thank you

i have big suspicious in 2 asian players and in 2 australian players also in stud PS 5/10 and 10/20

as I said could you please keep all your input regarding this subject in this thread(same thread in Internet Gambling): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...73#post2181973

but if that is the case could you send me a private message with the usernames, suspicions and evidence you have?...Even though I think i know who the australian users are(both from sydney) and they play a similar game and even have commonolaties in their usernames I can't say anything about them as I have no evidence at all whether they are related or of any wrongdoing.

thank you

What is this "zoo"? I will be happy to post there when I learn what it is.

Its always seemed to me that Stud was alot more vulnerable to hole card sharing collusion than other forms of poker.

Tao

I appreciate your concerns and bringing this to my attention. I've read both your e-mails and all the posts pertaining to the Changle players and I have a few points I would like to make, which I am VERY confident in making regarding the issue.

First, there is NOTHING unusual about the data posted for the Changle players! Using only my data from today (copied from PS Chat Window)...

During current Stud session you were dealt 1290 hands and:
- saw fourth street 378 times (29%)
- saw fifth street 231 times (17%)
- saw sixth street 144 times (11%)
- reached showdown 85 times (6%)
Pots won at showdown - 47 of 85 (55%)
Pots won without showdown - 146

The session was 2.5 hours with a win of $84.95. Assuming 75 hands / hour at $1/$2 7-Stud Hi, gives 6.6 BB / 100 Hands. Some sessions (1000 - 3000 hands) can be as high as 20 BB / 100 Hands, but that is the maximum for my play data, so neither the BB / Hour win rates, nor the 4th street % is out of line at all when compared to my 4th Street %, which was 29% for this session, and seems to be rather consistent, give or take a few % points either way.

Second, Changle is a HUGE city! 600,000+ people, so seeing a few dozen 7-Stud Hi players on PS with similar names at similar times isn't unusual... even from the same city. PS gave me this information in a previous e-mail in May 2007, which I can't find at the moment. However, PS convinced me in e-mail nothing strange was happening (as far as cheating) with any of the players registered from Changle. *Note: I've played ALL the players heads-up, and found most to be quite different (some gamble more than others, others are stronger); however, a few play the same, which leads me to believe they're the same player with multiple PS player IDs. Since I've only won from these players over the 8 months I've played on PS, I'm not thinking conspiracy.

Third, and most importantly, and this is the concept many (especially 7-Stud Hi player) can't grasp, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, THE LONG RUN IS LONGER THAN MOST PLAYERS THINK!

Until you have 2000+, more like 4000 - 5000 hours, of data at a limit, you really do NOT have a big enough sample size to say what your BB / 100 hand win rate is! Assuming you know you win consistently, 15 years TYVM, you do not get any reliable statistics until you've played enough hours. Simply, the data doesn't smooth out until then. Many players play limit poker part-time for years and never accumulate this many hours, so from thier subjective view (3-6 months or >) they can't win even though they are playing well and making correct decisions consistently, so someone must be cheating damit!

Anyway, be all that said, over 4000 hours since May 2007, I make exactly 1 BB / 100 hands, which I am sure doesn't sound like alot, but I would be impressed to see anyone's HONEST data @ the $1/$2, 7-Stud Hi game on PS over the same 4000 hour period who earns significantly more than 1 BB / 100 hands. Between the ante's / force bets / rake, I have concluded this is all I can earn at this limit, which adding on the $$$ from the VPPs while multi-tabling = about $25 / hour USD for this FishCake!

Juan65

Forum: Internet Gambling (for obvious reasons)

Here is the link to the thread again: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=100932&page=3

Please keep you comments there so the thread can be kept alive as well.

ty

bump this to the top. follow the link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=100932

Reasons:

1) I have put too much effort here.
2) I will be posting all the usernames shortly(hopefully today) so that everyone is aware.



Oh and since I am here, here is the last hand I played against one of the changles for you studs (just right after I won a similar pot from him). He immediately left the table after this and to my big surprise 2 of them came back immediately. I sat out ofcourse.

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: 7 2 9___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 8___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 6___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8___folds

4th Street - (3.60 SB)

Hero: 7 2 9 Q___bets
Seat 3: xx xx 6 7___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6 5___calls

5th Street - (2.80 BB)

Hero: 7 2 9 Q K___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 6 5 3___raises___calls

6th Street - (8.80 BB)

Hero: 7 2 9 Q K A___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 6 5 3 T___calls

River - (10.80 BB)

Hero: 7 2 9 Q K A 2___checks___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 6 5 3 T xx___bets___calls

Total pot: (14.80 BB)

Results (in white):[color:white]

Total pot $29.60 | Rake $1

Hero: [7d 2d 9d Qd Kd Ad 2c] (a flush, Ace high)

Seat 5: [8c 4c 6c 5c 3c Td 9s]

[/color]

Why would he bet the river?
I think I should have c/r 6th as well, but then I don't like giving free cards

Oh and please if you have any comments for this thread state them in the cross posted one. Link on top. ty

edit: oh and if by any chance he hit the straight flush it would have costed me around $500 as I would have probably punched my screen.

I'll just comment on this hand and maybe I'll get back to the rest of this mess during the week. The other guy bet the river because you would have to be completely dizzy to go for a check-raise with that board. Seems like a reasonable value bet, although I think that even I could have folded to the raise. Anyway, like a lot of other things in your posts here and in the zoo, this is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not the Chang Le crowd is colluding.

I'll just post here because this is where I post. I have now read the other thread, or at least most of it, and I find no evidence that these guys are colluding or otherwise doing anything unethical. Stars has been aware of these guys for some time, and they haven't found anything. If you manage to come up with any credible evidence that there is actually something shady going on, let me know.

Hello:

I will put my 1 cent here and x-post at Internet gambling forum.

At Pacific, Stud games are deserted area for some time now and for some reasons. This is the case for at least 6 month, I know I monitored.
Last several days, out of nowere some chinese players did appear at leveles 2/4 and up to highest 30/60. It looks to me these are expelled players from PS.

Probably there are more new Stud players from China at other sites.

X-posted in internet gambling...


I'm a regular in these games, and I really don't think these guys are colluding amongst each other. However, their play is all very similar and you kinda just get an odd "off" feeling playing these guys. I am an overall winner against these guys and really don't mind them at my tables. I do see them frustrating the hell outta the non-regulars though. My main probelem with them is the disconnect issue that was talked about previously. Here is a prime example of the issue in the 100/200 game where the guys connection was 99% (i am not playing in this game).

PokerStars Game #14839315334: 7 Card Stud Limit ($100/$200) - 2008/01/26 - 14:26:40 (ET)
Table 'Berbericia' 8-max
Seat 1: harmonywo ($4760 in chips)
Seat 2: LOINGPOKERWR ($8646.50 in chips)
Seat 4: stratkomb99r ($19900.25 in chips)
Seat 5: poiuytrewq32 ($5626.75 in chips)
harmonywo: posts the ante $20
LOINGPOKERWR: posts the ante $20
stratkomb99r: posts the ante $20
poiuytrewq32: posts the ante $20
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to harmonywo [Ks]
Dealt to LOINGPOKERWR [7d]
Dealt to stratkomb99r [6h]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [Kd]
stratkomb99r: brings in for $35
poiuytrewq32: calls $35
harmonywo: calls $35
LOINGPOKERWR: folds
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to harmonywo [Ks] [4c]
Dealt to stratkomb99r [6h] [Tc]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [Kd] [6s]
poiuytrewq32: bets $100
harmonywo: raises $100 to $200
stratkomb99r: raises $100 to $300
poiuytrewq32: raises $100 to $400
Betting is capped
harmonywo: folds
stratkomb99r: calls $100
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to stratkomb99r [6h Tc] [7s]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [Kd 6s] [9s]
poiuytrewq32: bets $200
stratkomb99r: calls $200
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to stratkomb99r [6h Tc 7s] [6c]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [Kd 6s 9s] [7c]
stratkomb99r: bets $200
poiuytrewq32: calls $200
*** RIVER ***
stratkomb99r: bets $200
poiuytrewq32 has timed out while being disconnected
poiuytrewq32 is being treated as all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
stratkomb99r: shows [5d Ts 6h Tc 7s 6c Ad] (two pair, Tens and Sixes)
poiuytrewq32: mucks hand
poiuytrewq32 is sitting out
stratkomb99r collected $1983 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1985 | Rake $2
Seat 1: harmonywo folded on the 4th Street
Seat 2: LOINGPOKERWR folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 4: stratkomb99r showed [5d Ts 6h Tc 7s 6c Ad] and won ($1983) with two pair, Tens and Sixes
Seat 5: poiuytrewq32 mucked


Converted but without the in-between action.


7 Card Stud High ($100/$200), Ante $20, Bring-In $35 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 7___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx K___calls

4th Street - (1.85 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K 4___raises___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6 T___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx K 6___bets___raises

5th Street - (5.93 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 6 T 7___calls
Seat 5: xx xx K 6 9___bets

6th Street - (7.93 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 6 T 7 6___bets
Seat 5: xx xx K 6 9 7___calls

River - (9.93 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 6 T 7 6 xx___bets
Seat 5: xx xx K 6 9 7 xx

Total pot: (10.93 BB)

Hello all,

I am a regular at the PokerStars stud games at many of the limits mentioned in the other larger thread. This is my first post on this forum, so please go easy on me. I will make every effort to contribute to a logical, respectful discussion, focused on the issues, questions, and concerns which have been raised by so many stud players, both on this forum and on the tables everyday.

Andy, your opinion is valued, as you are an experienced stud player as well. I agree with your overall assessment that there has not been sufficient evidence of collusion - at least not at this point in time.

I do think it is too early to draw conclusions on some of the issues that have been raised in the other post. There are simply too many unanswered questions relating to multiple accounts and potential selective disconnect abuse. I would like to see more energy focused on solving these questions together.

There is growing evidence of a relatively large number of PokerStars accounts (50+) with locations or relationships to accounts in the Fujian province of China, which includes Changle (Population. 0.7 million) and Fuzhou (Pop. 6.6 million). The number of these accounts continues to grow recently and several naming convention patterns linking the players have been identified. To complicate matters, many of these accounts are not listing valid location names. The location names are being changed (most likely after registration) to fictious or false location names, which makes it very difficult for the average player to detect.

Regarding location names, PokerStars policy states that players need to reflect their real information and Pokerstars reserves the right to update changes accordingly, or Example#1: $100/$200 limit stud player harmonywo (one of the players in lambchop's post#240 of the main thread - See his post here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=240 ) had been using a ficticious location name JUTANCUN for quite some time (months). This was reported to PokerStars yesterday, PokerStars confirmed the location was not valid and took action on the account. The location name was changed to Beijing the same day.

Example#2: $100/$200 limit stud player reasonableme had been using ficticious location name farenace for quite some time (months). This was also brought to PokerStars attention and the named was changed to fuzhou city.

To put this in perspective, let's consider the overall size of the seven card stud ring games at PokerStars. The Stud Hi games peak daily at approximately 20-25 active tables at once (for limits $2/$4 and above.) At most hours of the day, at least 50% of the tables at limits $2/$4 and above have 2 or 3 players with either 1) a location in the Fujian province, or 2) a relationship to players from the Fuijian province (as evidenced by use of the same naming conventions in their screen name.)

IMHO, more work needs to be done before these issues will be resolved. But let's be patient. Many of us have other responsibilities and priorities. Please contribute anything you can.
1) Stud players
a. Please report potential abuse of disconnections & false location names
b. If you suspect collusion, please keep records and provide it to PokerStars security team as well as posting it on the large thread. Any HH research would also be helpful.
2) PokerStars - Please continue the ongoing investigation. We ask for 100% verification that actual account use is matched to the identity of the individual opening the account. I realize this may be difficult, as users may use various real names/identities to open an account. We also ask that users not be allowed to play on the same table from the same physical location (room or internet cafe), or IP address. We do appreciate your work on this and the serious attention given.
3) Non-stud players / Others following these posts but not directly impacted by it as most regular stud players may be: Please be patient. Don't expect instant HH's or even any at all. Many posters have already indicated collusion may not be involved. I'm inclined to also agree with them at this point in time, but that could change in the future if sufficient evidence is presented.

Thanks to all those who have put in hard work, research, and effort on these issues, including those who have posted in the forum, those that have provided valuable feedback, PokerStars security team, and others who may be researching behind the scenes (like me until now .) These issues are very important to many regulars. I'm confident that we can find more answers if we all work together on this.

Please provide the current list of players to watch out for.

I would also be interested in a list of players.

This is very concerning when you think about how small the 7 card stud player pool is on Stars. If 25% of the players on 2/4 and above are really from the same region in China, it's obvious that something fishy is going on. Another thing to consider is that probably 99% of the Chinese population can't even afford to play these stakes.

Maybe they aren't raising up pots when someone has a big hand, but it's possible they are committing passive cheating: Sharing hole card information. You can't really get that big an edge by knowing a few extra cards, but it's still a definite edge over the long run.

There is a partial list of the players in post #75 in the big thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=100932

Some more usernames were mentioned thereafter.

CPA- we are waiting for pokerstars' response before we release the newer set of users and try to take this further if we receive negativity once more.