lol k your wording in the first post seemed like you were making a false distinction between the push chart and call chart...just wanted to clarify my understanding of it...but yea under those circumstances you're right

Well, shoving K8s there is fine, but I wouldn't resort to shoving according the NE until about 15bb deep. Also it's not PROFITABLE to shove. It's UNEXPLOITABLE to shove. As far as calling goes, that calling chart assumes the PFR is shoving according to the NE shoving chart. People actually shove tighter so we should call less.

curious, why do we open shove? why do we not open our range up considerably and literally raise 2bb/2.5bb bvb with a SS that plays Shove/fold? he wont adjust? and it only has to work like 50-60% of times, which is will to be instant profitable? ovb when he starts to adjust, we make the adjustment too and tighten up! As well, before we raise, we have to decide are we calling his shove! this makes it very easy to play againist them

Also, verneer, during that sweat session you mentioned he takes ton of notes! now, i think this is an area were 90% mirco players suck at, normally we just take factual info, but i once seen this post by grindcore, would be really cool i you had anything to add to this! ie, a small section on how to get reads and things to look for etc etc, i know this is a realy large area! cheers

(I actually read this every time i start a session to drill it into my head lol)

quote
Play fewer tables, make READS, then make lighter calldown, more valuebets and more bluffs based on them.

For every player, ask yourself:
-how does he play his air
-how does he play his draws
-how does he play his monsters
-how does he play is good hands
-how does he play his 2nd pairs
-all the above questions for specifc board types
-anything more you can think off you get the idea

Every time you learn anything based on a hand you played or watched (check HHs from medium-big sized pots you weren't involved in, especially when they went to showdown), take a note on villain and write down what you learned from that hand. By that I mean, answer one of the questions. Don't write down he bet 89 on the turn after checking flop on T852. That's not what you learned from the hand, that's just a fact. Write: potcontrols flop with 2nd pair. That's what you learned from it. You get the idea. Take TONS of notes like that. Then make reads!

Less than 1% of you who think you're making reads and taking good notes are actually doing this.

TY good point iv been writing out reads similar to your first example which tell me IE pot controls flop with 2nd pair but take twice as long and when taking a quick look at the note iv got to basically replay the hand in my mind to end up saying "pot controls with 2nd pair" anyway.

This is so true. A friend of mine who plays SSNL says that for micro players, reads are a little like position: uNLers know it's important and that they can use it to their advantage, but they're not quite sure how. I take a LOT of notes, but I often have no idea how to actually use them to exploit my opponent.

Thanks for posting this.

"But He Has To Have KK+ Here!"

After about 40 hands, villain is playing something like 15/12:

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $48.41
MP: $25.74
CO: $8.28
Hero (BTN): $10.80
SB: $38.27
BB: $16.17

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with A K
BB says "ty", 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.80, SB requests TIME, SB raises to $5.55, Hero raises to $10.80 all in, SB requests TIME, SB says "im a %&@!ing idiot", SB says "why why why ", SB calls $5.25

Flop: ($21.70) T A J

Turn: ($21.70) K

River: ($21.70) Q


He ended up playing 25/20 with a 3-bet of 7% over the course of the 165 hands we played.

Moral: Don't assume narrow ranges with small sample sizes and play your hand for what its equity given the situation. In this situation, AK is very strong 3-handed, especially since I've probably been very active.

These are very good point and clarification. Obviously, as with everything else, once you develop some reads, make adjustments.

I like turning my hand into a bluff here. 4bet/fold small and pick up the pot alot. We have good blockers aswell. And you are never ever going to get shoved on light. Folding is fine too.

This is very very bad. There is very little value in 4betting in this spot. And alot more in just flatting. There is just no reason to believe that villain views your 4bet as light at all, hence he will continue with a very tight range. Which is a disaster w those monster hands. You want value and not to end the pot right there and/or play vs his super tight range. Playing on autopilot like this is very detrimental to your game. You should always base your decisions on value. Door A (3betting) has some value here. Door B (flatting) has more.

As you develop reads, this is true, but readless, you are better off just playing your hand for value and not assuming that villain is able to 3-bet/fold his value range.

Now ... as you start opening from the BTN, these things will change vs. 3-bets from the blinds, but at 25NL and lower vs. an unknown, it's a good rule of hand to just play value hands fast.

The example was not readless. It said that villain's vpip and pfr were close together. That indicates some level of competence. After small sample size we ofc can't know what they will converge to. Playing your hand for value would mean flatting here for the reasons I stated. I think it is very good to assume that he will fold alot with his value range. Nothing wrong with that cause that is going to happen most of the time vs two players that might suspect that they are playing vs decent opposition or are just unknowns. Taking the safe route.

Rules like these lead to autopiloting. Which is the number one enemy of any aspiring poker player.

Thinking about value >>>>>>>>>> automatic 4betting at microes.

I thougt I might post 2 graphs here, one day I played 12 tables NL50, one day I played 4 tables of NL50.

12tabling
After this session I genuinely felt like I couldn't play poker. I got caught 4b bluffing, my cbets where raised, didn't flop any hands. At least this was what I was thinking. The more I tried to be aggressive preflop, the more I bled in the non-showdown pots.



4tabling
The I took Verneers advice of playing fewer tables, in this case 4 tables. Here I left my ego at the door, changed tables when I had good players at my left, not doing fancy play preflop or postflop. Just playing and adjusting first when I have a note to justify it.



This is not a very large sample at all, but I think we can all agree on that I somehow managed to find spots where I picked up the pot.

I'll give an example hand which I would never win when 12tabling:

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($22.75)
UTG+1 ($48.60)
CO ($44.75)
BTN ($54.90)
SB ($22.20)
Hero ($146.35)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BB J A
3 folds, BTN raises to $1.50, SB calls $1.25, Hero calls $1

Flop: K 5 2 ($4.50, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: 3 ($4.50, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.25, BTN folds, SB folds

Final Pot: $7.75

Hero wins $7.55 (net +$2.80)

BTN lost $1.50
SB lost $1.50

It's a very small pot, and that is exactly the point. The SB was a fish and he checked it twice, thus he shouldn't have much. The BTN was a reg and he would bet flush draws and Kx on flop. Once I lead turn I sure must have something, right? This is simply winning 5bbs just for stopping and think for just1-2 seconds extra. Do this ONCE every 100 hands and your winrate increases with 2,5ptbb/100!

Remember also that increasing the blue line increases our winnings. Villian was aggressive and I saw him often bet when checked too, preying on our percieved weak range.

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($50)
UTG+1 ($36)
CO ($50)
BTN ($71.55)
SB ($50)
Hero ($68.60)

Pre-Flop: ($1.25, 6 players) Hero is BB 8 8
[UTG+1 posts $0.50]
1 fold, UTG+1 checks, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2, UTG+1 calls $1.50

Flop: 3 2 6 ($4.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $2, Hero calls $2

Turn: 6 ($8.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: Q ($15.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

Final Pot: $22.25
UTG+1 shows
J A
Hero shows
8 8

Hero wins $21.20 (net +$10.20)

UTG+1 lost $11

It's not a hard calldown or anything because he bets so small, but the point is that since I thought for 2 seconds extra I realized against this opponent I might get more value from just c/c this hand. And also I do not risk getting blown of from my hand on the flop facing a raise which would lead me into guessing land.

Food for thought:
-If we do not bluff-catch we fold, thus the red line goes down.
-If we call and are wrong the blue line goes down.
-If we call and are right the blue line goes up.



Thanks Verneer!

what happened verneer?

Climb all the way up mount micro and fall down the otherside?

i dislike this comment for various reasons.

all of them are valid.

it was a joke

sir.

You outplayed me heavily.

wp

Some guys can´t understand this thread is actually for like 5NL, 10NL players. And main goal is to give them a solid-easy-winning strategy which is a good start.
This is why we just 4bet like QQ+, AK to a 3bet. It is the easiest way to learn them +EV. Yes, there can be more +EV ways to play it when you improve in time, but this is not the case now.

lulz

To add to this, I asked Haseeb "DOGISHEAD" Qureshi to define ABC poker at some point and here is what he articulated it as:

ABC Poker:

Distilled to its essence, ABC poker is a simple idea. It's a model of a solid game that is concise, simplified, and easy to use. ABC poker needs to be 3 things:

1) It needs to be easy to learn and implement
2) It must be +EV and easy to understand why it's +EV
3) It must minimize variance

Simply, ABC poker is a non-complex approach to playing with generally static preflop ranges and betting standards. It involves making very basic adjustments, and playing hands postflop in a simple way (little to no slowplaying or tricky play).

The reason why ABC poker is so good for small stakes players to learn is because ABC poker is very easy to implement and get working for you, and it'll create results very quickly. The overall strategy is made to be +EV against the average microstakes table, and although it's always going to be far from optimal, it will never be in a bad spot except in a very strong game. It does well against almost any type of opponent, and it gives you a good springboard upon which to learn more complex approaches to the game.

When we talk about ABC though, we're generally referring to the ABC game that you learn when you begin playing the smallest stakes. There is a sense in which there is also an ABC game at 5/10, which is the game that 95% of regs have in common (i.e., there is a large % of all spots which most every regular will play essentially the same), and we refer to the sum of these spots as "ABC play," which in the same way is optimized to be maximally +EV against the average opponent. Of course, it's harder to learn and more complex than the 5c/10c ABC game, but the idea is the same. It's a springboard on top of which the real "games" are played.

This definition will guide a lot that we discuss. I'll talk about alternative lines and things to keep in mind, but the crux of it is that playing your hands straightforward and for value is very ABC at the micros.

Agree with this point and might be somewhat guilty of it myself if so sorry not what I was trying to do just trying to discuss what is being presented.

I think this thread is fantastic and should teach people to crush those limits. And I know you and Verneer both know so much more then is being presented.

I know when I first started I read play poker like the pro's. would the ideas in this book help someone beat 5 10NL no. But if you have no base knowing the play only the Top Ten hands startgey is great for showing a small profit while you learn the game and gain experience.

The worst part about the book is Hellmuth broke it out into beginner intermediate and advanced hands. and well everyone thinks there world class or at least and intermediate player which there not. Should be noted I thought I was an intermediate player, and i didn't even realize it was a limit holdem book. Verneer and Wishiewish are not doing this they are presented a good guideline that I think if applied would surely destroy those limits quickly.

When people are new there going to do really stupid stuff, not because there trying to but because they don't know any better and this thread shoudl help tons of people get started in poker on the right foot.

Would that be me ? I just don't think we need that first step. And courage everyone to start to thinking about ranges right away.

why? as long as there's plenty of fish and predictable opponents at NLHE where our edge is seen in a fewer amount of hand samples, it seems to me that NLHE is a much better game to have taken off.

Which first step are you talking about?

Wishiewish said "and main goal is to give them a solid-easy-winning strategy which is a good start"

So you are referring to "a solid-easy-winning strategy" as the first step you don't need to give players?