Episode #425 - August 29th, 2016

Live from the Two Plus Two Studios - On this episode of the Pokercast: A dealer of the underground games in New York joins us to tell us about the poker scene in such a big city with no casinos. To start Ross and Terrence have a quick recap of UFC in Vancouver. Adam has a tournament staking ethics question for Terrence, we also get Shaun Deeb on the line to get his opinion on the scenario. Then Ian, our insider and dealer of the NY poker scene joins us to talk about his experiences dealing all over the city, in small and high stakes games and games that were raided and run by shady people. After Ian, we get into your Voicemails and E-mails. We also have a special edition of the Roscoe Report with listener submitted hands!

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In before Ian writes Rounders III.

No 2

3.5

Best.interview.ever.

I take it Mason will be getting this guy to write a book

Wow what an episode. Get that guy on again.

Just getting to episode 420. I'm falling behind while preparing for fantasy football drafts.

That was good!

I really enjoyed listening to this episode. I was very curious to know where the dealers deposit the rake seeing as an actual drop box would noticeable even to the very unobservant.

I remember when Ian called in and left a voicemail which was played on a previous episode and I was thinking to myself that it would be great having this guy on as a featured guest. Thanks for making it happen!

I was thinking this as well, but I assume most of these home games don't have one of those metal sliding drop boxes. My guess is that they just slip the rake back into the float.

goes into the dealers tray, at least in private games here.

Is Ian a forum member? If so, I have a question: the last part of the interview had him describing his vetting process for prospective players. Curious to know who vetted the guy that ended being the undercover mole for the police raid? Or is that the very incident that prompted the partners to assign him to the task?

Great interview, either way.

Regarding the multi-way all-in on the bubble before hand-for-hand. Would it not be based on who had the most chips at the start of the hand? After all, that's what determines payouts when multiple players bust out on the same all-in hand. And it has determined whether or not I cashed or bubbled in online tourneys. But maybe I'm missing a detail.

Edit: while I was typing that, Terrence got into the weigh-ins in MMA and the reason for the 24-hour rule. NCAA wrestling took the opposite approach in the late 1990s -- they made weigh-in a MAXIMUM of two hours prior to competition. This forced wrestlers to compete closer to their natural weight because they wouldn't have time to rehyrdrate, renourish, etc. in time to compete effectively. (The NCAA also raised all the weight classes by seven pounds that year, but required everyone to stick with the weight class in which they competed prior to the change.)

The buyin save should be proportioned to the amount won.

So around 60% imo


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I'd modify that to the proportion of the amount above $4700 that was won, since I'm assuming there would have been no obligation for a save if one of them took 5th place (with no deal). Maybe that's a bad assumption. All the more reason these things should be spelled out, and a final table deal was clearly a foreseeable possibility. There's no Code of Poker Regulations to turn to define all these side arrangements, and even two well-intentioned people can have a different understanding.

My first thought was the same as TChan's--pay 60% of the buy-in. But Deeb made a good point--the intent of the "buy-in save" agreement is to make both players whole if one of them wins the tournament. $29.5K is more than half of the maximum win, so the winner probably should graciously pay the full buy-in amount.

Not knowing the players involved, if they are seriously arguing over the difference between $1600 and $2700 they should probably just split the difference ($2150) and not make any more ill-defined deals.

The games I go to have a dealer tray or just a chip rack

As a military member I was transferred to Hawaii (island of Oahu). Since there are no legal casinos there, poker games are all over the place. It is extremely important to understand the rake structures that are involved. Most of these are 10% uncapped! The worst one I played in was 10% uncapped and on big pots they took extra to fund the various bad beats, high hands etc. that they payed out. The extra was undefined and not explained when I called them out on it. I never played there after that one. The best I found capped the rake on a $300 pot at $30 (and I complain about the $6 that comes out at my local casinos). On my long term spreadsheet I beat live low steaks for around $19/hr. In the year+ that I played in Hawaii, I won at a $2/hr rate.
I understand why they have to rake so much due to only having 1 or 2 tables and limited hours to make their money. It's just important to know as a player in these games, it has to be for fun as there really is no profit to be made.

Enjoyed this one. It was a fun change of pace.
I've seen this, as well. When Ian said something like "most of us are so fast, the average player has no idea that rake is even taken", a few warning bells went off in my head. Not sure how the club handles it, but having dealers palming rake and putting it in the same place as tips go (I'm assuming) provides good incentive for the dealer to take bonus rake/tip money from pots. Does the club keep careful watch on the box and tips go in the pocket? Even then, pulling extra from the pot for rake and then holding that to stash with the tip seems like a potential problem. Is dealer theft a problem in these games?
+1, Terrence had me convinced. Then Deeb changed my mind a bit. Not sure at this point.
It has seemed like all along that Terrence has been rolling his eyes when Ross brings up baseball betting. From the beginning, it seemed like T was either saying or about to say "quit while you're up, you're just riding a wave of variance". Add in the big parlays in sports betting, and Terrance sounds frustrated that his big-boy +EV advice is being ignored.

There was a period of time on the Ross report where the PLO hands were so solid that the boys had trouble really critiquing them -- every hand was "I see what you were thinking there, seems fine to me". That's the +EV gambling. No matter the result, every decision has good basis. Since we don't see all the hands, maybe there was selection bias in the play quality. Here's the unsolicited advice: stop all the sports betting and all the other -EV gambling. Get back to poker, where it really seemed your game was improving. As your BR grows, be somewhat slow to shot take. If Terrance says do something related to poker, just do it. Also, find a study buddy as below.

On the strat forums, I really like the session reviews we used to do -- you give someone say 100-200 hands from an average session and they look at all the hands, rather than a cherry picked subset. You could also do the "all hands facing a 3 bet on the button with a suited A" or some other filter, seeing if you're making correct play/fold decisions. With these tools and a poker friend willing to make the time (or swap reviews), your game can really improve. Arguing about close spots helps both of you. When we did these monthly, good threads started from disagreements with reviewing pairs.

You guys have found a sponsorship with SharkScope. Nice. I for one do not know what this means in terms of dollars and cents nor do I know what it costs to do the cast. Still, the offer remains that I, and I assume others, are willing to pay a once a year fee in order to keep the podcast alive, well and interesting. No response from you suggests to me a studio is no longer required. (skype and casts from homes etc.) If I am incorrect in my assumption then the offer still stands.

While I have little to add in the forum and have a horrid record in online play it in no way reflects my interest in the conversations, interviewees and technical aspects of various hands, tourney results and music. (Okay, I may be lying about the intro / exit music)

This doesn't work in MMA. When grapplers cut weight day of for a size advantage, they might suffer in their performance due to dehydration, but it probably won't significantly affect their long term health the same way it will in MMA or boxing. Significant dehydration makes the repeated head trauma of sports that include strikes much more dangerous. One FC is nailing it by tracking weight and hydration over a longer period and ensuring it doesn't fluctuate significantly on the week of the fight.

Hey guys, this is Ian the underground NY dealer.

I've been a long time lurker of the forums, and after seeing all of the questions and calls into the pokercast, I thought it would be a good idea to finally register.

There are quite a few questions in this thread (and some that were e-mailed and phoned in to the pokercast) and I'd love to answer them on a part 2 segment on the pokercast!

After listening to the show, I feel as if I was talking TO (and not talking with) Adam & Terrence and I really didn't get to fully answer the questions I was asked. I was quite nervous, didn't know how much time I would have on the pokercast, and tried to fit in as much as I could into each question. Which, in hindsight, was a mistake.

And in doing that, I basically went off on a tangent and didn't get to really give an insight into the stuff everybody really wants to know.

I've had a crazy past couple of weeks (including a huge fist fight at one of my games, which is very abnormal and I was quite upset that it happened) and I would love to come back and do a part two.

I didn't even get to touch upon the time in my life when I ran my own card room, and didn't get to tell the story of the gambling debt which eventually led to the closing of my room (the debt had nothing to do with me, one of my partners burned me and I was stuck with paying his debt).

All in all, I'm incredibly grateful for all of the positive responses. It makes me really happy that everyone enjoyed the episode.

I'm going to try and set something up with Adam, Ross, and Terrence for a part two of "Inside NY Underground Poker".

As I said on the show, there were a ton of players in the games I deal that listened to the episode and they enjoyed it too!

I'll do my best to make sure I answer the questions in this thread on the 2nd segment, and if there's anything else you want to know, then please post it in this thread and I'll make it a point to answer it.

Thanks for the wonderful & positive feedback everyone!

I think I must be the only one who thought that the segment with Ian was not as good as it could have been. There was a ton of rambling, all sorts of repetition, and just very unfocused talk -- a bit like Ian's initial voicemail which got everything started.

Having said that, I do credit Ian for stepping up to the plate and trying his best. But the first time is hard for everyone, I guess. Just strange that everyone else who posted on this thread thinks that it was the greatest interview ever.

Now that he's had some practice, however, it would be great to have Ian on for a "Part 2" where he can talk about those incidents that just occurred (e.g., the fistfight, the partner who cheated him, etc.). Hopefully, this time around Ian can really communicate the secrets and stories of the underground NYC poker scene.

You aren't the only one who thinks that, I thought the exact same thing myself!

In fact, I agree with everything you said.

I was pretty nervous the first time around, but I think I've got a handle on it now. And more importantly, I know the subjects that everyone wants to hear about.

Let's do this!

You did great, and your segment was fun. The whole "being relaxed while being interviewed" thing either requires experience or being a total sociopath. Watch as the new MTT stars come up how their first interviews are so stilted and then later interviews (for some) are these informal, happy conversations.

You've certainly inspired a whole bunch of home game players to chime in to the 'cast.