Episode #423 - August 19th, 2016

Live from the Two Plus Two Studios - This week on the Pokercast: We get a look into the premier online poker championship this year. First off we get an update on Terrence’s training, Adam talks some olympics and the end of a great Canadian musical era before we get into the news. This week in ICYMI: Sorel Mizzi in trouble again, Michael Phelps playing OFC poolside, Pokerstars Live events return to USA, Doyle Brunson targeted in a robbery and more. We are also joined by Pokerstars Bryan, the tournament director over there to talk about what we can expect from WCOOP this year such as a $100k high roller. After Bryan we get into some more of your wonderful mail including a would you rather, some strategy and a tinder gambling story. We also review some hands in the Roscoe Report before we wrap things up.

Music: Flamingosis - Pleasure Palette

Ross Report Hands:
Hand #1
Hand #2

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Boom!

Go Jets!

Nice! I'm enjoying the more frequent, shorter hits.

Wow, really trying to keep ahead of the pokernews podcast.

WPT FT

Victoria - most of the bigots are finally dying off, the ones that aren't 47. Beware of the Navy, spiders.

Hometown of two of the world's greatest punk bands.

What's morally different about VPN'ng and speeding?

Running over children?

Torrance was wrong about VPNing, and Adam was right,
Adam was wrong about the date at the casino and Terrance was right.
Glad I could help.

The dude with the scrotum tattoo (isn't that a book/movie? it should be) is next in line for MyPakage. That certainly is nuts. I once heard of a friend of a friend who had the old No Fear eyes tattooed on the tip of his dick. Something like the guys paid him to do it on a dare. I can't confirm with pics.

I don't mind if the episodes get broken up into two portions. Whatever works for our hosts and their intrepid producer's schedule.

I agree completely. I usually don't listen to a whole episode in one sitting so a constant flow of material works out the same.

Hey Adam, Terrance and Ross.

I like the new show format. Shorter shows are good by me.

Anyway, i came on here to grill Adam a bit about his speeding. You guys had a go at Sorel Mizzi for breaking the rules which is fair. Terrance said this about Mizzi: "Why can't this guy just play by the rules, that everybody else plays by?" But you guys do nothing but laugh it off about Adam's speeding.The double standards here is amazing.

Adam might think the only bad thing that could happen to him is getting a ticket, but he is wrong. If you're doing 10 - 20Km/h over the limit, (and i am assuming this based on his constant tickets) there is no way you can slow your vehicle down if a kid walks out into the road. So you are putting other people and animals etc. at an increased risk of being hit.

What is the upside of speeding? There is none. If we are both traveling to the same destination (say a 10km trip) you will be lucky to beat me by 1 minute by speeding. This is why whenever i catch up to someone speeding (because of a red light) i will give them a mean stare followed by the finger. Speeding is just selfish behavior.

Anyway, my rant is over. I hope you take my advice Adam, before you or your kid (who will grow up and follow your example) kill someone.

Cheers

Pete

waiting........................................... ................

Question for Mr. T Chan,

In light of your upcoming/recent MMA fight I have a proposal on how the UFC or other MMA leagues should organize their events and would like your thoughts. What do you think of having all one weight class fight in a given event and have them fight multiple people and it be tournament style? I am a pretty new fan of the sport, but it seems a lot of fights end quickly or with nobody getting badly hurt or winded like the Anthony Johnson fight at UFC 202. How about they take all the fighters who weren't hurt in prior matches and are willing to fight again that night keep fighting until there is one remaining winner like a tournament style event. The fighters who were hurt but won their earlier matches could come back at a later date. Seems like it would be a more efficient and accurate way to determine the best fighter in a given weight class since they can't game plan for a single fighter and also be more exciting for the fans. Do you think this is a good idea?

Fellas,

Releasing my inner law geek for a bit, I'll point out that there are two types of laws: malum prohibitum and malum in se. The first describes a rule that is only there because we say it is, while the second is a law that is somehow morally reprehensible. It is that distinction, I think, that Terrence is unwittingly buying into when he doesn't mind Sorel's VPNning but does mind Sorel's multi-accounting. And I for one think that's right. Another poster above pointed out Adam's mild internal inconsistency (it's not actually hypocrisy, which means something slightly differnt) with respect to his views on VPNning and speeding. In my own view, both VPN rules and speeding rules are malum prohibitum, and should be treated pretty much the same. Not so for multi-accounting, which is really a species of fraud.

In any event, great show as always. I can't tell you how far I am from Kells, though, as I almost always listen to you guys while I drive. So there!

SIX BY FOUR AND HE COMES UP EMPTY!

Fellas,

Following up on more VPN/speeding analysis: I don't think it has a whole lot to do with community standards in the poker community. I think it has to do with the underlying basis for the law in question. Multiaccounting is a variety of fraud, which we all know is -- for lack of a better word -- bad. Traveling at a particular speed isn't morally wrong. Nor is dialing in to a poker site from a location different from what the site thinks.

As for your argument, Adam, that VPNning ignores the hardship of those who moved to comply with the rules, I think that argument applies to speeding as well. I waste my time and increase my frustration going exactly the speed limit while you happily whiz by.

I do agree with Adam's point that driving below the speed limit is likely to create accidents. But that's only because lots of people exceed it! There's nothing intrinsic about lower speed limits that causes accidents; in reality, those lower limits conserve precious fossil fuels and generally reduce the amount of kinetic energy involved in collisions, both of which are ultimately good things.

I don't have the slightest problem with anyone who VPNs. Put the multiaccounters to death, however.

Well it is where i'm from. Generally most people are doing the speed limit or under here. Speeding is definitely something frowned upon.

After listening to Adam's follow up (ep. 424). i was spellbound. Yes people going under the speed limit is a hazard too but that wasn't even part of the original conversation at all. After getting a second bite at the cherry, Adam still didn't even acknowledge the danger of speeding (uhhh killing people).

Also, his "everybody is doing it" line was laughable and unbelieveable. To be honest it just sounds like he is saying this to justify his speeding. After listening to this i was stunned. I also lost a lot of respect for him. I guess some people never learn.

There is a difference between speeding and reckless driving. Also, context is important. If someone is going 40mph in the 25 in my neighborhood, I am not happy. If someone is going 50mph in a 40mph mostly empty country road, or 85mph on the 70mph highway, not sure why anyone cares.

First of all, the three things aren't perfect analogues, so the comparison is productive but not perfect.

VPNing is essentially a free rider problem. There would be serious consequences if very large numbers of people VPNed (for the resources PS would have to devote to catching them, for PS's efforts at getting into the US, possibly the USDA targetting PS again) so the VPNer is taking advantage of the majority of law abiding people to avoid paying their own way (i.e. by relocating), and is imposing some sort of cost on the site (and hence on the players via rake). Whether you think free riding in society is morally reprehensible or not depends on how much of a social atomist you are (I think it's wrong, and people who don't are delusional, YMMV). Plus, note that you can't VPN as a well known player without also disguising your identity, which is surely the same form of fraud as multiaccounting.

Multi-accounting is clearly socially determined to some extent - views on it have changed a lot over time, plus no one really minded Guy multi accounting, nor did Patrick Antonious get much stick, or Eli for example. So the fraud point is solid, but not the whole story.

And finally speeding - as pointed out above, the severity of speeding is very variable. But it's not purely a social norm - lots of stats show that the risk and damage of accidents is very sensitive to speeds (LDO), so the potential cost of speeding is much more problematic than MA or VPNing. The idea that you're a greater risk of causing an accident by obeying the speed limit reeks of self-justification, and driving is the paradigm example of the dangers of young male overconfidence. Insurance premiums are what they are for a reason.

It's difficult to imagine traffic in another city, nevermind another country.

If you were in Montreal, you would see literally everyone on the highways doing 135 km/h, minimum.

The speed limits were set a long time ago. First they made them the walking speed of horses, then they had been slowly increased until some time in the 1950s. They have been stuck there despite improvements to roads and vehicles and the almost complete absense of pedestrians.

Speeding fines, speed cameras, and this latest reduced speed school zone marking fetish are revenue streams for the police.

I drive around this city at or near the speed limit, pickup trucks tailgating me. I am one of very few people doing the speed limit. 10 to 15 km/h over the posted speed is the average.

VPNning isn't much of a free rider problem, if it is that at all. So long as their USA No. 1 presence is hidden from authorities, nobody cares, and the costs to PS are small. And VPNers certainly pay rake, so it isn't as though they aren't paying for the services they're using.

Pete, speeding itself isn't a moral issue. Recklessness is, so nobody is thinking speeding is driving 200mph near a crowd of blind and deaf schoolchildren. The huge majority of speeding tickets are given out on highways, in which the driver is doing 70 in a 55 zone or something similar, and there's nothing even slightly immoral about that.

Adam is absolutely correct that the great majority of cars on the open road in either USA#1 or Canada#6 are moving above the limit by 10kph or better.

I think speeding and vpnning are quite similar. Sure, the analogy isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.

If PS cared about VPNing that much, they would make everyone confirm geolocation like NJ stars. Doesn't make sense to increase the barrier for entry if they aren't forced to.

* not literally.

@Pete,

Where are you from? I've driven both in Germany on the autobahns and here in USA No. 1. The autobahn in many places has literally no speed limit, whereas the usual speed limit on USA No. 1 highways is somewhere between 55 MPH (roughly 90 kph) and 70 MPH. My understanding is that the fatality rate on a correctly adjusted basis is about the same. Drivers on the autobahn almost universally follow the pass-on-the-left rule, however. I have certainly lost focus on the autobahn going 200 kph and had some damn Porsche six inches off my rear bumper, but believe me, I usually stay out of the left lane unless I'm passing. Period.

I don't generally, if ever, speed in traffic or on surface streets where there are stoplights/pedestrians/bicycles/etc. -- and I think the autobahn sort of speeding is what Adam does.