Thats not what I said at all. I said they have to accept that they could of done more to protect themselves and didnt.

The difference is, Betfair (or any other uk regulated site) wouldnt be able to mis manage dividends until the money had left the segregated account. So not matter what dividend they wanted to pay themselves, they couldn't touch the funds until it was converted into rake. If betfair went bust tomorrrow (lol) the players funds would still be available to pay out the players.

In the US and at FTP this was not the case, just one big bank account that they dipped in when they felt like it.

Yes people were screwed by ftp in europe, but they got their money years ago.....

For someone who claimed to know business, this statement makes no sense. The officers of the company mismanaged funds, criminally. It doesn't matter if debts were repaid later through liquidation. There were bad actors and people don't want to do future business with them.

Back to your mixing in poker. People eventually hit a 1 outer via pokerstars. Being a European made the payment come faster. That wasn't foresight, just luck. PS would have happily paid US players on ftp same day. Reasonable people played both Stars and FTP. There have been UK regulated sites that went down with no payouts. Do some homework, before loudly claiming one side was purely safe and the other was not.

My two cents.

The thing that I kept going to on Danielle's story is that whether or not the FTP balances were paid, paid back in part or paid in full, the players are showing signs of being victims. In courts they would have had a chance to see resolution to the crime. They could have confronted the perpetrators. They could have made a victims impact statement. None of these things were provided to them. So seeing the people who they believe are at the root of the crimes against them is like forcing them to relive the incident over and over again. Basically, they have restitution but no resolution.

LOL I never said one side was "purely safe" I just said there were things they could have done to minimize the impact but chose not to. It is true that sites in the UK went under with no payouts, but this was way before the segregated accounts were even a thing. Oh and the reason PS could not pay out FTP players on the same day? Because of the fcd up legislation in the US, another reason not to set up shop in the US as a "pro" poker player. I can only assume some of your significant wealth was tied up for a while with the way you're arguing this.

Nope. I had money on both stars and tilt, but it wasn't significant to my net worth as I'm not a pro. Set up shop? Most people don't randomly look at a globe and pick where to live. They have jobs, spouses with jobs, family, etc. It could be the internet, but I'm arguing against your "people were dumb to play in America" and "no big deal what the principals at FTP did, as they should have expected it" sentiments. Maybe I'm incorrectly getting tone. Look at Danielle's story as a perfect example -- people have geographic ties.

Again, nothing about the victims of the crime matters. If you're unclear what Chris and Howard did wrong, I don't know how to explain it better. You said something about "but this was way before the segregated accounts were even a thing", but Full Tilt made this claim to their customers. Stars did, as well. Only one lied. Marketing claims aside, it is a crime to pay dividends when there aren't profits.

'Wah Wah. I was robbed playing a game that was unregulated and no one that I say stole from me will apologize to me!'

Get over it or do something about it. Where is your lawsuit against the one you say robbed you? What protest did you make to the WSOP for allowing them to play? When you find out these people are playing in the same tournament as you, you have a choice not to play. Make that point and let the organizers know why. Get everyone of like mind to make the same statement.

Saying to the person 'you caused me grief, acknowledge my pain!' is pointless; it is not going to happen.

Of course don't forget that you might be playing with a child molester who hasn't apologized for their crime. Or a murderer that took someone's life. Some person who regularly beats their significant other, child, or parent. Or a rapist who hasn't be caught. Someone who robs liquor stores at gunpoint to get the money to sit and play against you. What are you going to do if you find yourself at that table?

I like to think I'm more sympathetic/empathetic in my wording, because some of the harmed individuals really did take it in the teeth, but it's hard to disagree with the bolded.

Hell, I'm on the side of Ferguson/Lederer/et al getting some kind of legitimate justice, even though I know it will realistically never happen – at least to anyone's satisfaction. There's nothing these guys can do to make dmoon (or anyone else) feel better. So if there's nothing they can do, and there's nothing the wronged players can do, then why dwell on it?

As for "no one will apologize," this is another important point. Ferguson took a lot of flak for returning to the game without an apology. But Lederer did apologize, to which everyone said – reasonably so – it was hollow and/or too-little-too-late.

Meh. You might be. Or you might not be. The guy in line at the store in front of you might be someone who defrauded senior citizens out of their Social Security money. He also be someone who works with special needs children in his spare time. You don't know, so you don't judge him either way. (And realistically, you're not paying attention to him enough to speculate on what he might or might not have done.)

But you do know what Full Tilt did, or at least how its business practices affected you. So having strong feelings about Lederer sitting down at your table is perfectly reasonable.

Incidentally, if I knew for sure someone I was playing with was a child molester or murder or rapist, I wouldn't exactly be thrilled about that, either.

I literally yelled out loud in the car when I heard that! Love it!

Unfortunately, the concept of Black Friday is now synonymous with FTP mismanagement. The fact that dmoongirl cannot longer play high stakes online in the US was not the fault of FTP or its mismanagement. In fact, the money she made in the years between 2006-2011 was because of the defiance of the big 3 unregulated sites that decided to stay in the market.

The discontent comes from the misconception of a badly run site being trustworthy. Nobody is expecting any money, let alone apologies from the Cereus guys - you knew the risks... (even if in 2009 they were calling themselves the "New Ultimate Bet").

I would've been super uncomfortable at a table with Howard or Judas Ferguson, too, btw. I find the question of why those guys are there really interesting and am surprised why they don't answer.

cf410 is back with the positivity!

I'm gonna be honest, I missed him

FFS dude are you a politician? I never said anyone was dumb or that it wasnt a big deal. You seem to over react to what I am saying, so I'll try again and lay it out more clearly. I am not the enemy.

1) It was absolutely the fault of management at FTP

2) I have sympathy for all the players affected

3) Players were putting 100k plus on a website that was operating in a well known grey area

4) Players were putting all their eggs in one basket

5) Players could have done more to protect themselves, but didn't

6) There was a greater than 0% chance that these sites would eventually be investigated, the law tested or some other crackdown

All of the above leads me to say that you should not still be whining about, or using any sort of energy to care about this issue some 5 years later. Had the players been putting their money into a regulated site in a regulated country and did everything they could possibly do then I would stand behind them.

I played a 10k at the hard rock in miami in 2011, on the table behind me was blair hinkle who had binked a 1m score in the ftops (i think) a few months prior. On my table was will the thrill, who was moaning about how he told blair to get most the money off as nobody needed a 1m bankroll online. This was about 2-3 weeks after black friday. He had an opportunity to get the money off, but left it on there. This is a prime example of players not doing everything they could to protect themselves.

Oh and saying the players couldn't move because of family is not a valid argument. Its like living in Barbados and wanting to be a downhill skier and saying that you're not prepared to move to switzerland because of family.

It would be a poor career choice to become a professional poker player in a country where it was technically illegal to play online. If you're not prepared to move to a country where the game is legal and the pool is busy then again its a poor choice.

Hmmm, this show thread was kinda boring.

For what it's worth, I don't think he claimed you said anyone was dumb.

kBoom