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Without reads, is this a fold at 0NL? Without reads, is this a fold at 0NL?

03-02-2014 , 08:24 PM
I don't really have any stats on this guy as I was new to the table, so I don't know what his play is all about. However I don't see what value hands he would have that would raise the flop on this dry board. Maybe I'm just levelling myself. What should I have done?

PokerStars - $2 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $202.00
UTG: $200.00
UTG+1: $200.00
MP: $166.20
MP+1: $228.73
Doofus (LP): $269.57
CO: $215.10
BTN: $200.00
SB: $462.86

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Doofus has K Q

fold, fold, fold, fold, Doofus raises to $6.00, fold, BTN calls $6.00, fold, fold

Flop: ($15.00, 2 players) K 2 4
Doofus bets $10.00, BTN raises to $48.00, Doofus calls $38.00

Turn: ($111.00, 2 players) 9
Doofus checks, BTN bets $108.00, Doofus raises to $215.57 and is all-in, BTN calls $38.00 and is all-in

River: ($403.00, 2 players) 5
03-02-2014 , 10:54 PM
Depends on who it is: His 5x raise sizing would probably have me sigh fold because it's clear I'm playing for stacks and I can find a better spot. If we knew this guy was a whale I'm prob never folding. If this is some random 22/5 or 29/6 I'm just giving it up on the flop.
03-03-2014 , 10:56 AM
I think the decision needs to be made on the flop when he raises there. It's a pretty strong raise and without reads we don't have enough info to think this guy will spew with KJ, K10 here.

I'd range the opponent KJ+, 22, 44 here and we aren't playing well against that range.

If this guy is making that move wih air or worse we will find out soon enough and be able to readily exploit him.
03-04-2014 , 05:04 PM
Against an unknow i would fold OTF.We lose so much when we discover ourselves against a tight passive or loose passive player,that was just playing his set ,AA, AK for what it is.On this spot against na unknow player,i think the frequncy of that happening is high to the point that the call OTF is not profitable.
03-05-2014 , 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofus Krondelly
I don't really have any stats on this guy as I was new to the table, so I don't know what his play is all about. However I don't see what value hands he would have that would raise the flop on this dry board. Maybe I'm just levelling myself. What should I have done?

PokerStars - $2 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $202.00
UTG: $200.00
UTG+1: $200.00
MP: $166.20
MP+1: $228.73
Doofus (LP): $269.57
CO: $215.10
BTN: $200.00
SB: $462.86

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Doofus has K Q

fold, fold, fold, fold, Doofus raises to $6.00, fold, BTN calls $6.00, fold, fold

Flop: ($15.00, 2 players) K 2 4
Doofus bets $10.00, BTN raises to $48.00, Doofus calls $38.00

Turn: ($111.00, 2 players) 9
Doofus checks, BTN bets $108.00, Doofus raises to $215.57 and is all-in, BTN calls $38.00 and is all-in

River: ($403.00, 2 players) 5
He should be raising value hands like sets and two pairs especially if his opponent is unable to fold one pair.
03-05-2014 , 01:25 PM
Snap fold if opponent is Canadian.
03-05-2014 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter23
He should be raising value hands like sets and two pairs especially if his opponent is unable to fold one pair.
The villain almost never has two pair here, and also he doesn't know that I am reluctant to fold top pair.

Therefore this has 'bluff' written all over it.
03-05-2014 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofus Krondelly
The villain almost never has two pair here, and also he doesn't know that I am reluctant to fold top pair.

Therefore this has 'bluff' written all over it.
If it's against anyone even remotely resembling a regular then you're dreaming
03-07-2014 , 08:21 AM
pretty crazy call otf.

This is always a hand better than yours unknown vs unknown, keep table visible to see if he turns out to be a whale, but he's probably just a reg and thinks you're a fish.

What are you trying to accomplish ott? Hope the unknown is a massive drooler and stacks off his KT/KJ hands and fold all his air?
03-07-2014 , 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by di0d80
pretty crazy call otf.

This is always a hand better than yours unknown vs unknown, keep table visible to see if he turns out to be a whale, but he's probably just a reg and thinks you're a fish.

What are you trying to accomplish ott? Hope the unknown is a massive drooler and stacks off his KT/KJ hands and fold all his air?
I jammed the turn because I was committed to the pot.
03-07-2014 , 09:52 AM
the turn is a very standard fold against a regular with no history/reads. he shouldnt expect a rare information regular to fold here imo.
03-09-2014 , 04:55 PM
You specify that you don't have any information on Villain so all the comments like "if we knew that this guy was a whale..." or "if we discover he's a passive..." are largely irrelevant, we have to deal with whatever information we have at that point.
And since we don't have any, we have to try to play optimaly (unexpoitatively) against this unknown player.

We will admit that Villain as a standard cold call range on the button of about 20% which represent 224 combos.

Let's take a look at his value raising range OTF:

AA, KK & AK (if he didnt raised them PF), possibly KQ, 44 and 22. And that's about it.

Given that you hold some K blockers, this range represent only 20 combos or barely 9% of his complete range.
Moreover, a part of his value hands would have most of the time 3-bet PF (namely AK, AA, KK), and with most of his value hands he would likely slowplay since the board is super dry.
For the same reason the large (almost 5X) raise and the PSB lead OTT doesn't make a lot of sens.

So we can discount at least 50% of his combos, which leaves us with 10 combos, hardly 4%.

With such a super tiny value range compared to his calling range PF added to the fact that his line is so unusual if he's value betting we can draw this conclusion:

Even though it's still possible that he is value betting in rare occurences, most of the time Villain is bluffing or value owning himself with a worst K and you should call OTF and jam OTT here.

Last edited by Zarathoustra; 03-09-2014 at 05:02 PM.
03-09-2014 , 06:05 PM
Is this one of those threads where everyone says how bad a play it was, only for the OP to then post the big reveal that villain was bluffing with something like A4s, so that OP's reverse engineered thought process looks like that of a genius?

Post results please.
03-10-2014 , 02:05 AM
didnt read thread, but answer to title is yes, it is a fold, always
03-10-2014 , 03:04 AM
His sizing on the flop is so off that I would say: Sir If you have a set or AK or AA then here is $200! Merry Xsmas and I would make a note of what he showes me for future reference!
So my play would be min-4bet flop! If he calls, ship turn and if he 5-bets flop Fold!!!! You would get Kx (Except AK) to fold flop and if u face a 5bet you know you are way behind or playing a player with huge balls and no brain which will eventually be reviled later in the session!
03-10-2014 , 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB
Is this one of those threads where everyone says how bad a play it was, only for the OP to then post the big reveal that villain was bluffing with something like A4s, so that OP's reverse engineered thought process looks like that of a genius?

Post results please.
I think you nailed it, pokie wants to look like a hero here with his play
03-10-2014 , 07:30 AM
I'm having a blast this month. It's just getting a little uncomfortable sitting with this horseshoe up my ass.

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 442029386 *****
$0.50/$1 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** 09 03 2014 15:15:26
Table Betsy Ross Bridge 6 Max (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: UTG ( $152.79 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $101.09 )
Seat 4: CO ( $148.33 )
Seat 6: BTN( $100 )
Seat 7: SB ( $106.45 )
Seat 9: BB ( $223.71 )
SB posts small blind [$0.50]
BB posts big blind [$1]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 7h, 7c ]
UTG calls [$1]
Hero raises [$3]
CO folds
BTNcalls [$3]
SB calls [$2.50]
BB folds
UTG calls [$2]
** Dealing flop ** [ 7s, 9d, Kc ]
SB checks
UTG checks
Hero bets [$9.75]
BTNcalls [$9.75]
SB raises [$52]
UTG folds
Hero raises [$88.34]
BTNcalls [$87.25]
SB calls [$46.09]
** Dealing turn ** [ 5h ]
** Dealing river ** [ Tc ]
** Summary **
Spoiler:
Hero shows [ 7h, 7c ]
BTNshows [ 9h, Kh ]
SB shows [ Ks, 9c ]
Hero collected [ $301 ]
Hero collected [ $2.18 ]
03-10-2014 , 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathoustra
You specify that you don't have any information on Villain so all the comments like "if we knew that this guy was a whale..." or "if we discover he's a passive..." are largely irrelevant, we have to deal with whatever information we have at that point.
And since we don't have any, we have to try to play optimaly (unexpoitatively) against this unknown player.

We will admit that Villain as a standard cold call range on the button of about 20% which represent 224 combos.

Let's take a look at his value raising range OTF:

AA, KK & AK (if he didnt raised them PF), possibly KQ, 44 and 22. And that's about it.

Given that you hold some K blockers, this range represent only 20 combos or barely 9% of his complete range.
Moreover, a part of his value hands would have most of the time 3-bet PF (namely AK, AA, KK), and with most of his value hands he would likely slowplay since the board is super dry.
For the same reason the large (almost 5X) raise and the PSB lead OTT doesn't make a lot of sens.

So we can discount at least 50% of his combos, which leaves us with 10 combos, hardly 4%.

With such a super tiny value range compared to his calling range PF added to the fact that his line is so unusual if he's value betting we can draw this conclusion:

Even though it's still possible that he is value betting in rare occurences, most of the time Villain is bluffing or value owning himself with a worst K and you should call OTF and jam OTT here.
Awesome post, and this agrees with exactly what I was thinking.
03-10-2014 , 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB
Is this one of those threads where everyone says how bad a play it was, only for the OP to then post the big reveal that villain was bluffing with something like A4s, so that OP's reverse engineered thought process looks like that of a genius?

Post results please.
Results are irrelevant, it is much better for discussion if we view this as a general spot rather than this specific hand.
03-10-2014 , 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofus Krondelly
Results are irrelevant, it is much better for discussion if we view this as a general spot rather than this specific hand.
Nice pot then. Congrats.
03-10-2014 , 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofus Krondelly
Results are irrelevant, it is much better for discussion if we view this as a general spot rather than this specific hand.
Yeah, it's a general and standard spot where a reg 5xs your cbet. I would pay good money to see MeleaB slap you around. Also Pokie, you're useless.
03-10-2014 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter23
Yeah, it's a general and standard spot where a reg 5xs your cbet. I would pay good money to see MeleaB slap you around. Also Pokie, you're useless.
Yeah, I am learning to play better, that is why I think this is a bluff.

Yes, MeleaB would crush me, I know that.
03-10-2014 , 01:26 PM
I'm a lover, not a fighter.
03-10-2014 , 03:09 PM
If we were to play hu4rollz then I may as well just give you my bankroll and save us having to play the hands. You wouldn't need to pay rake then either.

You have won over seven figures at this game.
03-10-2014 , 03:09 PM
make fight, not love

      
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