Amaya is like a giant tumour. Come new year, all the little cancerous cells (BE eastern euro things) will spread to all the other sites, infecting them with poker cancer, and the whole poker world will be more cancerous than ever :[

what happened on Amaya?

There is no way it will get better for anyone continuing to play. If players quit it's because conditions are unfavourable, but not enough players will quit in order to create better conditions for those who remain. If that was the case, then players would rejoin. It's simply not possible that with Amaya effectively increasing their prices across the board that the games could get better.

what you dont take into account is that there will be regs who will play even more to make up for the lost money amounts. so games will become even worse by this as well

Meh, if those guys were clearing 20k prior theyll claering zero next year. Tough to make money having zero ev. And there are a bunch of those.

In teh end a situation like this was bound to happen sooner or later thanks to all teh coaches, vid producers, serious advice givers etc. There are only so many pros that market can take b4 it collapses. Was fine back in teh days where there was only west europe and north america. Going pro there and decide against formal education was a huge step and i was teh only one doing it out of my friend circle and everybody i spoke to strongly adviced against. So it was almoast impossible to get too many regs.
This drastically changed with pokerstrategy.com expansion into eastern europe and other lowincome countries. And here we are now. And yeah, all you educators out there took part in running online poker to teh ground. Tyvm

Educational sites, blogs, videos, etc obviously made the games tougher, but they are a literal inevitability that will always come about in such a setting and can't be prevented. We can dislike them, and moan about them, but we just have to accept that it's all part and parcel of a poker environment. It's a natural evolution and all else being equal the economy would eventually stabilize probably close to where it is now. These educational platforms are not to blame for what Amaya have proposed to do, and don't be persuaded by their PR that the game is unsustainable. The truth is that Amaya want to take a much, much bigger piece of the profits, and it really is as simple as that.

Basically this, there are people living in a dream world about these changes.

This is how I see things.

Games across all sites take a serious hit as competition increases dramatically. Sites will continue to punish it's players with either further direct rake increases or indirect rake increases (removal of table selection, removal of huds etc). I think that within a couple of years I will be able to make more money outside of poker (that's how dire I see poker getting).

I'm not saying people need to quit poker now but if you're worried then this is the perfect time to start planning for your post poker career.

Thats where i disagree. I was thinking like this as well. In 2013 i thought games cannot get any tougher, then in 2014 i thought teh same again. But now i know it wont stabilize, at least not as long as education doesnt get shunned and people who coach get spit on whereever they appear.
You just have to look at us two... in 2011 i made a quartermillion without even knowing wat a polarized range is while folding to 3bs over 70% and opening same % on button. I become significantly stronger each year, mentally, gametheoretically, you name it and still being 10times as strong as in 2011 i barely make half of teh money i made back then while tableselecting like jesus himself these days... and earnings decreased every ****ing year after 2011

I for once dont like what stars is doing but i very much like that they are doing something which prevents new possible regs of even thinking to get in to poker and encourages old regs to get out of poker. Unlike many others i want to grind for teh next 10+years and i dont need any other regs, especially not teh ones who are selling out their wisdom...

Yeah, I understand your point, and of course there's also the relatively new factor of increased AI software (specifically why I said "all else being equal") adding to that worsening of conditions.

Agree! This whole "I want to give something back to the community" is the biggest BS I have heard in a while.

But what if you wanna cash in on your knowledge before you get out?

Bzzzzt

Why not give something "back" to this precious community of regs by NOT cashing in on your knowledge. Only bc you want to move on doesnt mean other regs do so as well. VERY SELFISH to give away your knowledge and make things harder for anybody who stays.

Apart from that if u want to get out why not just grind those 5 hours you need to produce and cut that video. Or why not grind those 90minutes instead of coaching dat clueless muppet who cannot figure out **** for himself?!

sorry did Amaya increase rake again?

Whyis the world ending ?

Apparently its only 6 weeks of onlinepokerz left so hurry up and glgl

lol, come on. A poker player can't accuse anyone of being selfish, especially when it comes to offering something to others. Poker is one of the most consumerist and selfish games out there. We ultimately don't give a **** who we screw over or who gets hurt, all we care about is our bottom line. I've personally noticed a serious change in my own attitude towards poker - how immoral it is and by me doing it for a living, i offer close to nothing to society. At the very least, i can pay tax on making coaching videos, have a thread that new players can learn from and ultimately 'give something back' (which is apparently bs steiger), which btw, how is it even slightly bs?

It's laughable to be called selfish for the choices that I've made as a poker player. Particularly when you, tim, wanting others not to make coaching videos is for your SELFISH GAIN. Totally backwards thinking.

I'm by no means happy about the way poker is going, but i'm certainly glad that i'm being pushed away from this career solely because of the moral implications

Thanks for biting. I only used that "selfish" to show how ridic it is. I just got accused myself of being selfish by zazano and some other guys in his thread after my anticoaching rant and wanted to see how teh other side likes being marked as selfish

not sure I can agree with the bolded part Ben. Certainly you must be contributing to the economy in some way. Living in Colombia I'm paying two people, our maid and our chef, a living wage (combined with two or three others). I'm also one of few clients that my Spanish teacher has. In fact, the other poker players employing her are probably sufficient for her to earn a livable income off of. Obviously different if you're residing in a developed country but just trying to highlight my thoughts.

im gonna agree with teh timstone on this one.

If u are coaching unknown people for $, or producing videos, you are either 1) a very smart person/seller (because you dont plan to grind much more in the nearby future much at all, or you can make more hourly coaching than actually playing the game), or 2) you are quite dumb and naive (because your expectation will progressively decrease each year, possibly quarter in the games u play urself which is equity you can`t compare to any short term $ u make selling video`s).

I have gotten quite a few offers from top sites to produce, never this thought seriously crossed my mind to even consider doing so, i do plan to be around for quite a while lol.
Now its different if you are coaching ur best budd w/o any charging obv at nl10 every now and then. Its your own choice for a person you are in good relationships with, and you wish well for him, even if its gonna cose you some EV.

But yea i dont really want to start this loooong discussion where people start seriously arguing etc, save me time pls.
Its just my opinion, i could be wrong here but thats what i came up myself and also reading/listening to guys who are currently sitting at 25/50-200/400 games alone sometimes.

Imo contributing to society is a bit more complicated then "i run the local butcher shop" maybe the way you gain income doesn't benefit anyone but yourself (which is still arguable as a pro poker player) but seems kinda weak to limit your thinking solely to your career.

There are very very few regs that I feel I owe anything too in poker. If I want to cash out from poker by making coaching vids I will do it unashamedly. I doubt there are more than 2-3 regs that could realistically try to convince me otherwise without them sounding a huge hypocrite in one way or another. You are just as self vested if you are a bumhunter as if you are a coach or video producer, pretending otherwise is dumb, you are solely interested in your bottom line and not that of other peoples. One maybe affects the population more but the driving mechanism (self interest is exactly the same). If someone made me what i considered a realistic offer then i would consider it.

Do it. No one really cares that much at this point, no one can stop you anyways.
Does it hurt our bottom line? Yes sure. But if its good for you go for it.
Similarly amaya`s decision to cut VIP hurts everyone`s bottom line except themselves making eco system actually worse long term (as coaching vids) you know. But they care for themselves so you cant blame them.
Not a lot of arguments you can bring there to argue Amya, nor u should care too much.
Nerve cells dont recover you know.

Like if its good for your bottom line making vids before quitting (i dont think ull quit tho), go for it.
In the end we all only care about our own bottom line if ur completely honest w urself, i might have done the same thing.

Otherwise reading that post i get impression `If my ship goes down, i`ll make sure you will all go down with it`. I might be wrong idk.

Looking forward to those ponty vids. Always wondered how one can grind dat 30/18 semifish style at 6max while earning 6bb+