true.

well, you are just prooving how stupid you're and probably an eternal break-even player who think that 40bb stackers is the problem. U can't even tell a good argument to support all this crap, only thing you do is showing how pathetic this petition is and how pathetic people who support it are.

Not reading any good argument yet, Zen...

The problem is that anyone with a brain CAN play it. That's why there's so many midstackers at SSNL at the moment and the number is growing at a scary rate. Again, Pokerstars already acknowledged that the ability to play a hand-chart zero skill break-even strategy is indeed a problem. They thought CAP tables and raising the min-buyin to 40bb's was the solution, but they were wrong. The min-buyin needed to be raised to at least somewhere between 50-60bb.

''The problem is that anyone with a brain CAN play it. That's why there's so many midstackers at SSNL at the moment and the number is growing at a scary rate. Again, Pokerstars already acknowledged that the ability to play a hand-chart zero skill break-even strategy is indeed a problem.''


Do you realise how contradictory this is? Is it an easy winner strategy or a zero skill break even one? And again, if you complain about it being too easy PS should answer with something like ''hey if it's so easy, where is your brain then? Play with 40 bbs and stop making stuff so difficult for you and for other people''. What would you tell to someone who said that playing with 100bbs is for idiots and anyone could play it so the minimum buy in should be 250bbs?

Couple of solutions for you:

Play zoom tables, where the minimum is 50bbs.
Play 100-250bbs deep tables.
If it's such an easy strategy you should learn to play with a 40bb effective stack and, at the same time, play 100bb effective stack against those people who prefer that stack.

It's break-even at best before rakeback. Midstackers make their profits off rakeback - you would know that if you had any understanding of the problem. Not only do you not understand the problem, you clearly also lack understanding of how midstackers even play and profit off poker. No I don't play 40bb's because my winrate full-stacking is higher than break-even, which is what i'd be limiting myself to by playing 40bb's.

Your 100bb to 250bb argument has no merit. Anyone playing 100bb's can be exploited postflop. The problem with 40bb'ers is they can not. You can not play an unexploitable 100bb strategy based solely on a hand chart. Midstacking is not poker; it's a loophole.

Until you get a clue I'm done responding to your post. If you want to continue this discussion with me, take it to PM's and stop derailing this thread.

Well, you are clearly running away from this discussion since you ran out of (or never had) good arguments. I'm myself a midstacker and I'm far far away from being a break even or rakeback player. There are TONS of midstackers who have a higher winrate than many of 100bbs players, even in NL2k+!
If you are such a winner, what's the frucking problem with people who conform being break even? Maybe I don't understand the problem because there is no problem at all since none of you is saying '' the problems are THIS, THIS and THIS''. You limited yourself to say ''you don't understand it' but you aren't saying what exactly the problem is.
Again, the fact that you can't exploid midstackers postflop because you don't have the skills that it takes or, most probably, you're too lazy to learn some other aspects of poker doesn't mean that it's impossible to do so and because of that you can't say it's a loophole.
And I don't think I'm derailing this thread at all, I'm just proving the lack of arguments that you cry babys have.

ask him for some more info. ask him how many guys beat the games, b/e, lose before rb

cap players earn sick vpps. im sure mealea is aware that the guys in the sne pursuit threads are cap players. they have no problem earning 1.5- 2mm vpp. when joey was in his sick sne plo propbet he was grinding like a mad man. at the same time they had that daily grinder leaderboard. joey was finishing in the top 5 but the rest of the top like 20 were cap guys

right now theres easily enough cap games running at 1/2 to easily earn 1.5mm vpp. theres fish on every table. games break when the fish leaves. theres even more .25/.5 and .5/1 running

theres a reason stars hasnt just raised the min bi and let the ss ss in cap games. they cant. as i said before ptr showed that most of these guys were beating 1/2 and 2/4 reg tables for 0- 0.5 ptbb but losing too much at cap to make it worthwile.

if cap was beatable for these guys theyd play. what i suggest is that we help convince stars to move ss play to cap games and make the cap games playable. right now the rake at cap is straight up too high. edges are just way too thin. cap guys earn sick vpp which obv means stars earns sick rake from the games. theres def room to reduce the max rake per hand to something like $2.50- $2.75 (whatever, do the math and figure out how to improve the games).

some people will complain that its not fair to reduce max rake in a cap game vs reg game but i'm happy with it. if you think its unfair nobody is stopping you from playing cap. i personally think everyone wins this way. reg games will be 10x more enjoyable for all. ss will be earning sick vpp's at cap games. sick vpp's mean that pokerstars is raking a ton wich makes them happy to. when you can create a win-win situation, go with it

what you said was spot on. in addition to that stars is either bull****ting us or making millions off these cash games and clueless. obv its tilting either way as i posted in itt bolded

i am totally confused why people (micro stakes shortstacker in particular) post here and say: 'stop whining about shortstackers just because you cannot play well against them'

the majority of players want to see a decrease in the number of shortstacker and literally noone said its because they are so hard to play against

if you are a shortstacker thats fine, but you should be aware that small stakes and medium stakes full ring tables are so full of shortstackers and that is terrible for the games in the long run (need an explanation, read this thread)

i still dont understand why there is no clear difference between these games;
if you wanna play shortstack go play CAP games where everyones short
if you wanna play 'regular' poker go play 80-100bb buyin poker
if you wanna play deep poker go play 100-250bb buyin poker

although this makes sense to me i realize its upsetting to a fishy player that wants to buy in for lets say 63bb and doesnt want to move down
and i think thats why its necessary to limit the amount of 'regular' tables you can buyin with a short stack..
if we set this maximum to 4, 5 or 6 24tabling shortstackers cannot take abuse from the regular tables anymore and are forced to play their comrads at CAP games, but 99,99% of the fish dont want to play more than 6 tables so they will remain happy

there were virtually no midstackers when you were allowed to buy in shorter. you and all these other clowns buy in for the minimum because it creates the maximum advantage for the player with the least amount of skill.

simple questions

why don't ss just play cap?

why didnt ss stick to cap when stars raised the min bi?

why did ss choose to "mid stack" instead of playing cap?

why did none of these ss "mid stack" before the min bi was raised?

until you can come up with some reasonable answers to some very simple questions i'm going to play your game. stfu and stop crying

all of this makes sense except stars knows that these ss won't/ can't go to cap games

Well, I actually played big stack and then turned to mid stack, so your argument is invalid and a big failure. Please, tell me, what's the point in aswering those questions? Where u wanna get? Some SS went to CAP tables and some others decided to LEARN AND STUDY (things that you crybabys are unable to do) and take their stack to 40bbs.

You cried about the 20bbs and PS raised the min. Now you are crying about the 40bb and I'm so damn sure that you will cry when 60bb players come up too. That's all you do, CRY.

why?
what was your winrate fullstacking?
post a graph.

why are you posting dumb **** like this if you don't understand postflop play?

if you arent capable of answering theres no need to talk to you

learn and study? people itt have learned and studied for years.. and each and every poster itt would demolish you heads up. why not 'learn and study' how to play a turn/river? you think people itt can't ss? they choose not to be because they choose to have a WR. almost everyone in here can post a month graph larger that what you will acquire all year. i can't believe i'm even indulging you with a reply.

keep shortstacking 10nl. sick life.

places you haven't thought of yet.

if you want to have a debate quit with the ad hominem, be an adult, and answer questions.

here's an easy one:

what would be better for your winrate..
a) short-stacking at a table full of full stacks or
b) short-stacking at a table full of short stacks.

HAHAHAHAHA.

Do you really thinik stars thinks ss´s with breack even or low winrates are a problem for poker? do u really think stars thinks things like "dam thats not poker! ss´s are destrying the beauty of real poker! we need to kill them!"?

please guys stars its only looking for the maximun profit for them selves not for a determinated stack size strategy players group. As long as they get the same or even more rake they will choose that option.

You are saying, "there are lots and lots of ss´s", if there are sooo many ss´s nowday (even more than full stack players), have u though that stars could think big and make 20-50bb tables only? fishes would not even see difference because they love playing those stacks size and stars would get the same or even more rake because ss´s have more balanced edge and lower winrates?

Answer is A. Cap tables are not profitable by winning be cause there are many ss´s together and rake kill it. ss´s need of full stack players be cause they dont know how to play with these efective stacks and basically full stacks are their fishes. Got it?

in the very long run stars gets maximum profit by satisfying the most players as possible (holds less ground now they also own full tilt but still)

also, in the past pokerstars has shown to actually give a crap about what (high volume) players think, which makes sense if they want to stay #1

also, i have a feeling lautaaaaaa and Pokie are the same person trolling like theres no tomorrow

eliminate ratholing entirely, leave everything else like it is. period

You say full stack players are your fish? So you're telling me full stack players are your fish, also regular fish are your fish... So why the hell are we not seeing shortstackers with 3pt winrates if everyone is a fish to these incredibly skilled shortstackers? How come none of you can crack .5pt if that is the case? Acting like full stackers are your "fish" is delusional. Fish are your fish.

Cap tables are not profitable because there are no fish there. Fish don't enjoy playing cap, if they did, there would be a lot more than 15 cap games going at 100nl & 17 cap games at 50nl right now. There are no fish there and games don't run, therefore you come to the regular tables.

You are clinging to this hope that this uproar is all just because the full stacks don't want to adjust or work on strat vs shortstackers. This couldn't be further from the truth, the fullstackers have worked many times harder on their games than shortstackers have and will continue to do so. The uproar is because all these shortstacking scumbags are making the games die the same way cap has died.

This reminds me a lot of a quote from the pitching coach in the movie the Rookie of the Year said something along the lines of using ''Hot ice'' to cure arm soreness because it's the best of both worlds, hot and cold.

What you don't understand (I won't give any reasons as to why because none of them would be very nice), is that it's not that 40BB stacks are hard to play against, it's that they f*** up the chemistry of the game, they get in the way and cause real poker players to not be able to play real poker. They ruin the Poker in Poker and take all the fun and logic out of it, they take all the awesome dynamics and meta game out of the game, not to mention they piss the fish off as well.

The 40BB stacks destroy the art of Poker.

It's similar to if you told Pablo Picasso back in the day that he could only paint with 40% of the colors he used before from now on.

40BB stacks are like a mosquito you swat and kill while you are out hunting trying to kill a bear, yea you still kill an animal, but it's just not worth the time to kill such a small worthless peon of a specimen, and it might cause you to not kill the bear as well.

And before you quote this and tell me again that maybe I should learn to play with a 40bb effective stack size, I filtered HEM to see how I was doing in that area this year just to check, and I'm up over 15 grand this year at 100nl & 200nl in that area, so if your ever come to Mexico my wang is here waiting for your mouth, then I will proceed to show you how you can live once you learn the other 60bbs of poker, toodles.

Agreed, this is pretty much what it comes down to. At some point Pokerstars is going to have to bite the bullet and do something for the integrity and quality of their games as well as the long term potential, instead of thinking about how much money they can stuff into their pocket tomorrow.

it only took ten posts before your true colors were shown.

i agree stars is a business and like a business looking to maximize it's profits. but the long term health of the games is at the utmost importance to that and lately these games have been horrendous at times. so much so, that i'm sure people have started looking into other sites or don't play during times when they normally would. which hurts their profits.

if they could retain the health of the normal tables, along with keeping the armies of short stackers, that would be the ideal for all.

oh, and i was trying to be nice earlier because it seemed like you were trying to help, but with regard to your idea of a median buy-in system, it's ******ed.

this made me laugh for a long time.

yes i do 'have it'. i didn't ask it without knowing the answer jag off. my point in asking it was for two reasons. one was to see if lautaa would even try to have a reasonable debate/if he was smart enough to know the answer... and two, to prove the point of this thread. the games are bad for all. even short-stackers. as you can see with the photos itt, the tables are comprised of nearly all ssers. not all the ideas itt would eradicate ss'ing and some of the ideas would acutally help a sser's WR. (like limiting the # of them at a table - as difficult as that might be). if ssers weren't so close minded they could see that.

i've said before that i don't mind playing with a few ssers. they are free to do that. it's when the table is full of them that they become unplayable or at least not enjoyable... and detrimental to all of our win rates, including ssers.

so yeah, i 'got it'.
unreal.