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| Small Stakes Full Ring Discussion of .50/1 and 1/2 online and 5/10 live no-limit and pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies |
02-04-2012, 08:05 PM
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#1
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in a seriously confused mind
Posts: 1,713
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100NL standart spot, turn decision?
Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #11787902
BTN: $98.50 (98.5 bb)
Hero (SB): $100.50 (100.5 bb)
BB: $122.89 (122.9 bb)
UTG: $114.44 (114.4 bb)
MP: $101.21 (101.2 bb)
CO: $91.49 (91.5 bb)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K  A
UTG folds, MP raises to $3, CO calls $3, BTN folds, Hero raises to $12, BB folds, MP calls $9, CO folds
Flop: ($28) 8  8  7 (2 players)
Hero bets $16, MP calls $16
Turn: ($60) A (2 players)
Villain 11/9, fold to 3b 60%, call 30% (10 samples).
He's a really solid reg (I think), never seen him do anything stupid. Haven't done anything stupid against him either.
Caller is a terrible 27/12 fish who doesn't fold at all postflop if he hits anything.
Anyways just wanted to check my logic - in general he's calling my 3b with like TT+ (maybe even JJ+)/AQ+, not sure if he 4bets AK/QQ.
Cbet OTF (btw sizing's probably too small, no?) should get some credit as I don't 3bet him much and on this board I have little FE against his range, so I expect him to sometimes fold TT? also AQ+ - stuff i chop with or has equity/bluff opportunities against me.
When he calls I put him strictly on pairs and therefore betting will receive too many folds? So what is the best line? C/r and vbet river smallish if checked behind?
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02-04-2012, 08:15 PM
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#2
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veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,059
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
I'd bet even smaller on the flop, I don't expect him to fold anything really and it sets you up better for bet, bet, shove.
On this turn I'd bet always, he knows its a great barrel card so should be really suspicious when you don't bet it so I doubt he's going to turn JJ into a bluff or something if that's what you're hoping for.
Just bet the turn 1/2 pot and shove the river, you're making it too hard.
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02-04-2012, 08:36 PM
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#3
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,031
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
checking would be really tagfishy
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02-04-2012, 08:49 PM
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#4
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in a seriously confused mind
Posts: 1,713
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChoiceAsBro
I'd bet even smaller on the flop, I don't expect him to fold anything really and it sets you up better for bet, bet, shove.
On this turn I'd bet always, he knows its a great barrel card so should be really suspicious when you don't bet it so I doubt he's going to turn JJ into a bluff or something if that's what you're hoping for.
Just bet the turn 1/2 pot and shove the river, you're making it too hard.
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When posting this thread I thought of the same thing, but then again - do I really have any bluff range here which needs any scarecards? Yes my 3b range in this particular spot should be pretty wide, but all of it is towards value so not too wide. The caller is a fish, that's the target, I can't just squeeze with any two broadways.
I assume he knows that my range is weighted towards value so A hits it pretty hard and even if it didn't my range is remains strong enough so that I don't need to turn my hand into a bluff.
Also I'm not hoping he'll turn his SDV into a bluff, all i want is another street of value and I doubt that he will continue on such turn with TT/JJ/QQ
Last thing if we're not expecting him to fold anything OTF, then why bet in the 1st place? His range is not air, his calling range is also strong. To not confuse anyone why I'm opposing myself or w/e, briefly my question is - is expecting him to fold ocasionally TT/JJ on this board when I make a bet of a decent sizing (lets say 18-20$) naive?
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02-04-2012, 09:15 PM
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#5
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enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 68
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
bet $12
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02-04-2012, 10:04 PM
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#6
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: ch/raising the river w a flush draw
Posts: 3,535
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
the word is standard.
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02-04-2012, 10:42 PM
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#7
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old hand
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: I'm a snail
Posts: 1,605
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by isunkurbttlship
the word is standard.
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this should be stickied
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02-05-2012, 12:13 AM
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#8
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 714
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
i'm starting to prefer standart.
your logic is really strange though. you put him on exclusively pairs, yet still think he can have "stuff you chop with" and also that c/r is a good strategy vs this range.
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02-05-2012, 03:55 AM
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#9
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banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: posting vertical graphs
Posts: 4,477
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
maybe the easiest turn bet
ever
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02-05-2012, 06:13 AM
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#10
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Winning
Posts: 3,787
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
Bet small on flop. Vbet turn jam river. Its Not that hard really. You said bet was small? 16 into 25 is massive. Bet half pot
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02-05-2012, 06:36 AM
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#11
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: New Round New Chances Everyone
Posts: 6,710
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Is flop really a Cbet here? I can't see it really accomplishes much against a really snug range of like TT+/AQ+.
I don't think it's terrible but I don't think it's +ev in general. Now that you did though, you gotta bet the turn and shove the river.
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02-05-2012, 07:17 AM
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#12
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in a seriously confused mind
Posts: 1,713
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmbSmbSmb
i'm starting to prefer standart.
your logic is really strange though. you put him on exclusively pairs, yet still think he can have "stuff you chop with" and also that c/r is a good strategy vs this range.
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OTF his range isn't only pairs, i'm saying his range is only pairs when he calls the flop barrel
anyways since i dont receive anything more from comments than bet bet shove - results here
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02-05-2012, 03:19 PM
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#13
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adept
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Heywood Jablomey?
Posts: 825
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD77
Is flop really a Cbet here? I can't see it really accomplishes much against a really snug range of like TT+/AQ+.
I don't think it's terrible but I don't think it's +ev in general. Now that you did though, you gotta bet the turn and shove the river.
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Against bad non thinking players I would totally agree with you, because playing face up does not hurt your EV, but against semi decent regs that can hand read we must cbet this flop. Once we check our range instantly becomes more heavily weighted with air hands like A/K high. I am pretty sure that we bet our premiums something like 80% of the time on this flop for that very same reason you mentioned...they probably are not folding very much. Against a reg balance should be considered imo and cbetting 3 streets gets max FE against villains range even with a crappy board run off...obv this turn is good for a smallish vbet for just a tad over 1/2 pot like maybe $36 or so. And I believe that I read somewhere that OP has only value hands in this spot...maybe adding some air hands like Kxs, Axs, and Qxs(x=rags that can't really call profitably preflop) might help you get more value from these squeeze spots. I am not advocating raising with these hands every time but if the conditions are right such as villain folds to 3bets a high % or maybe a loose opener gets called by a loose caller then yea...bump it up!  just my thoughts don't put too much confidence behind my words tho...
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02-05-2012, 06:01 PM
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#14
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old hand
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in a seriously confused mind
Posts: 1,713
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jon 21
Against bad non thinking players I would totally agree with you, because playing face up does not hurt your EV, but against semi decent regs that can hand read we must cbet this flop. Once we check our range instantly becomes more heavily weighted with air hands like A/K high. I am pretty sure that we bet our premiums something like 80% of the time on this flop for that very same reason you mentioned...they probably are not folding very much. Against a reg balance should be considered imo and cbetting 3 streets gets max FE against villains range even with a crappy board run off...obv this turn is good for a smallish vbet for just a tad over 1/2 pot like maybe $36 or so. And I believe that I read somewhere that OP has only value hands in this spot...maybe adding some air hands like Kxs, Axs, and Qxs(x=rags that can't really call profitably preflop) might help you get more value from these squeeze spots. I am not advocating raising with these hands every time but if the conditions are right such as villain folds to 3bets a high % or maybe a loose opener gets called by a loose caller then yea...bump it up!  just my thoughts don't put too much confidence behind my words tho...
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my whole point for 3beting is to get more money pre into the pot from the fish, not from this villain. I always thought in spots like these it's obvious that 3betors range is weighted towards value because of the fish so all Ax Kx (rags or w/e called) are going to end up -EV for squeezing, no?
Also against this tight guy I dont really need to be balancing as I won't play him nearly as often to require any balance at all.
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02-05-2012, 07:36 PM
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#15
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veteran
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,344
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Re: 100NL standart spot, turn decision?
If you're going to bet bigger on the flop make sure that you make it big enough so you can shove turn. The whole point is to avoid awkward stack sizes on all streets.
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