I've been playing almost 3 years now and finally had to close all of my on-line poker accounts. After many, many, many losses to bigger boats and four-of-a-kinds, among other insane runner-runner and two-outer bad beats, my on-line poker days are officially over.

I've always considered myself a recreational player, but I started keeping a poker log about 6 months ago - and it's now painfully clear that every dime I net in a brick-and-mortar goes down the toilet on-line. I rarely cash out on-line like I (at least thought) I did 2-3 years back when I started.

I'll never quit my day job, but if I had avoided on-line poker altogether in 2008 I would have generated about $1,500 a month in brick-and-mortars - playing 3/6 and 4/8 limit, and 2-40 spread limit, and 2/5 no limit ($300 max buyin). Maybe the occasionaly 6/12 omaha hilo 8. I play 2-3 long sessions a week when I'm feeling rested and have all my 'chores' done.

With that said, sorry I didn't provide info on my playing style - can someone generalize to me why I can be successful in a brick-and-mortar, and be so god-awfully lousy on-line? I don't want to purse on-line poker any more, but the curiosity is killing me. I guess I just need the face-to-face contact to get tells, and without that human touch on-line, I'm just a slot machine.

My worst beats on-line totaled $1,600 in 35 minutes - I lost to four-of-a-kind three times in a row at a $400 NL table - I had the top boat each time. Fourth beat that session was boat over bigger boat made on the river (gee maybe I was tilting betting my queens full of jacks). The list goes on from there - gregariously sick beats over and over and over again wiping me out. Getting all my money in a pot headsup where I'm a 2:1 or 3:1 favorite, setting up a sic trap on the guy overplaying his AKo or KK... literally losing more than 60% of those situations where I should only be losing about 1/3rd of the time. Each time I'm amazingly beat runner-runner or back-door by a man sitting at the table with 3-4x the buyin. No, not a short stack donk - the 'respectable' player at the table sitting with the huge stack is getting there making sic beat after sic beat.

I guess call me superstitious, or an idiot, but I just don't trust on-line poker. I'm done. I'm going to earn it the old fashioned way. You can tell me it's because we see 4x more hands per hour, but I just don't believe that a guy sitting with 4x the buyin is going to call my $350 shove with Q8o middle pair, where I have top set, and then get running 8's for the win . . . last one today was sic, flop is KQ2, I am sitting on trip Kings, guy calls my $350 shove without even pausing (did he have 'autocall' ticked?) turn Q, river Q, wham bam thank-you-mam.

Shall I go on... no, I won't bother. Pick any beat story and I've lived it for $15k worth on-line. I'm done. Off to the brick and mortar. At least the 3/6 limit beats are believable. My bankroll won't be stuck at $6k any more now that I've fixed the on-line leak by turning it off.

Maybe I just didn't realize a guy needs a $50k bankroll to play $200 NL online due to sic sic sic variance?...

That's probably because you suck at poker, but your live opponents suck more

I'll tell you nobody cares and gtfo. Too bad you don't have the "stamina" to outlast what you think is a ****ty run of luck.

OK then, you're an idiot.

didnt you watch 60 minutes! online poker is rigged!


oh and you prolly suck

What's the biggest swing you can expect in $200 NL on-line? Realistically? Is a $10k swing realistic? Serious question, does a guy need 5x-10x bigger bankroll to play on-line?

Yes, I know I suck! hahaha That's the whole point. How can one suck so much ass on-line vs. live tables? Should I only be shoving on four of a kind and straight flushes?

So maybe on-line game is much more competetive? I guess I'm more stuck on variance than skill or beatability of the game. How does one 'suck' when shoving top set on a rainbow flop and getting beat repeatedly?

Online poker is rigged because the sites make it so u win at first and then lose it back, or they make it so there is action like u will flop a set and then someone will river u with a bigger set. It happens all the time man and you just ahve to live with it.

I know this becasue I still play a bunch of live poker and all the live gurus who rail 5-10nl live tell me that they play 10-20 NL online and it always happens to them but they are still up at online poker cuz they are so good and that they dont ahve enough cash on them to buy into 5-10 nl live (cuz its so massive) and that when they play poker they like to buy in 10k deep ldo and they only have enough money to play 1/2nl atm. Oh and they dont play on the internet anymore because they dont enjoy it as much even tho they are up a ton of money. they are also really good at SNG's apparently because every single poker player in the world is a winning SNG player so w/o reading the OP i'll assume you are good at sng's to?

winrate will be less online. You will probably play more than one table online. These two reasons alone force you to have a larger bankroll. If you suck, you might have a 15k downswing but it is unlikely for a winning player. Maybe if you are playing 3/6 but even then I would still be mad.

Lol Ricky1231 I hear all the same stories from these guys - no one will ever admit they get owned on-line. Someone has to be losing, in fact a majority of players have to be losing for us to see the big winners we see on-line.

Hey man I'm not claiming to be an on-line poker God. I've discovered the polar opposite. I guess I don't find any harm going where the big fish are, and in my case, the local card room - not on-line. And if I'm not cut out for it then hey, I'll stay away and less fish for you.

Doesn't anyone have a non-sarcastic, ripping/flaming comment on the big differences in on-line poker these days vs the local card room fishing pond?

I wiped everything clean, let me e-mail a few sites and see if I can get some hand histories back for some analysis.

Why are you playing $400NL if you can only beat $2/$5 NL live? You should be playing $50NL, at most, probably $25NL.

(Sorry all you mid-stakes regs - He was quitting anyway!)

Online is harder, live is softer. Although online has more variance, you probably just have a bad case of selective memory and forget all the times you also got it in bad. I seriously doubt you get your money in great every single time and just are so unlucky that you have lost 15k because of this.

Started in $400NL on-line when I was up over $10k, dropped to $200NL about 1/3rd of the way into the big downswing. Giving up at $6k bleeding like a donkey.

$2/$5 NL live ($300 max) is usually the only game going in the cardroom - besides I don't think I have appropriate bankroll for the two bigger games even when they are available $5/$10 $500 min buyin and I don't know what the next blinds are but it's $1000 min buyin.

Are you sincere when you say $50NL or $25NL is more appropriate for $10k bankroll? I guess maybe considering the multi-tabling nature, this does make since? $10k at $50NL is 200 buyins, $10K at $200NL is only 50 buyins.

Ok so what I'm hearing is mathematically a $5k-$10k downswing is not really possible for a solid online player at $400NL & $200NL.

nah it is, just not likely. If you feel you are a winning player and it is just variance, it's possible.

Heck, I guess if it's as simple as this, I'm making the right move! lol

um no, i responded to a 15k downswing and apparently you edited it to 10k. 5-10k is def possible for a 400nl player.

Sorry about that, I did edit, $15k is where bankroll was sitting when I started playing 400NL, not the total size of the downswing.

I am getting the feeling I was playing way out of my bankroll, on-line + multitabling + more sharkies = smaller winrate and need much bigger bankroll.

Live game + single-tabling + abundant fish + less hands = bigger winrate and apparently don't need as large of a bankroll.

One sign of people who suck at poker is that they whine about bad beats

Say guys, while I'm on hiatus from on-line poker, is there anything I should be tracking from my live play? So far I'm just writing down day, time in, time out, cash in, cash out, hours of play, type of game, and misc. notes on the session. Is there anything else I should be watching/measuring/recording?

You're simply the Nostra Damus of poker.

Thanks to all the other folks who had meaningful things to say in this thread.

He didn't say those limits were more appropriate for that bankroll. He wasn't even talking about bankroll size. The point he was making was that the skill level at 2/5 NL live is equivalent to the skill level of 50NL or 25NL online, and to be honest I think 25NL is the more accurate of the two. Live poker is way softer. You made a mistake thinking you had a chance at 400NL online just because you beat 2/5 NL live.

No, I'm saying $25NL or $50NL is more appropriate to your skill level.

Even worse if you $2/$5 game is the lowest limit available locally (ie; there's no $1/$2 NL game) then you should probably consider starting at $10NL.

A $10K downswing is very possible for a winning player at $400NL. 25 buy-in downswings are rare but not unheard of.

However, you've yet to present any evidence you are a winning player at $400NL and it's extremely unlikely you are. In fact, I'd be really, really surprised if you're a winning player at $200NL or $100NL.

Live, you're used to playing with grade school kids in the playground. Online at those stakes, you're playing against NBA pros.