100NL with 100BB stacks.
UTG player is fairly new to table and opens for $3
folds to me on the Button with 6 5 I raise to $9.
UTG player calls

Flop($18.42) 5 Q 5
UTG checks
I bet $9.21
UTG calls

Turn($35.82) 5 Q 5 J
UTG checks
I bet $21.41
UTG calls

River($77.74) 5 Q 5 J Q
UTG bets $30
...Uh oh

Easy fold right?

**** this guy call - cow

I'd say Fold, but Chuck Norris is coached by Vinivici so it's whatever he says. Always.

How does the villain get to the river without either betting or raising a queen here? No information on the player since he is new.

Given that folding here is pretty tough on you with a top range hand in this spot, would it not be a good idea to see how the guy plays? Especially this early in the session with him? I think I call, not only to see if he is bluffing, but to see how he played his hand in this situation. That may be well worth the price later on to know if he is a guy that will continue with TP hands. IF he is willing to stack off on top pair hands and call down without any aggression, I would want to know that now. That is definitely a player I want to play against. If you wait until he gets felted by someone, it is a little bit late.
He could easily have a Queen here, but there are so many other hands he could have.
I would call and see what he has. Might even show you a 56! which he now thinks is the joint.
We always try to give a player credit for not being a dope until he shows us he is, but I think the information here would be a very good indication of what type of player he really is.

^Why would he raise a Queen before the river?

"Paying for information" on a single hand (even without the shltload of free info available from dozens of other hands) is silly and costly.

It says he is new to table, no other information given on this player in question.
He might raise the flop to define where he is at with his queen. We can't always expect it to be beaten holding the queen in that spot. Mixing up the play at times is needed and at times we have to attempt to define a hand.

The information you are getting by making the call is not the same information that is available to you if you fold.

If the villain does have a Queen and makes the turn call, he is getting into very deep water with a 1 pair hand. That is a player that will drop his stack on the end. How is he folding if it bricks off and his queen is still top pair? He has stuck in 40$ already and the pot is large. At the river it is 77$ and the effective stack is approximately 70. He could face an all in for the stack with TP or any amount in between.

That is the idea of the information I am speaking of. It is that information that we absolutely want to have on a player. You are only going to get it by seeing it, and if it is a showdown with another player, you miss the opportunity.

1. Pay for information.
2. Raise to define your hand.

Got it. Thanks.

Vini and MeleaB posting on a hh in the small stakes forum. What year am I in, 2002?!?!

Where did I say raise to define your hand?? The raise would be to define the opponent's hand. It does not have to be done very often, which the player could certainly be calling down with a top pair hand and chosen not to bet or raise, which is a reason for finding out.

Since the forum is about discussion of ideas and that is what the original poster was looking for, this is something to consider.

I am not saying any strategy is correct, however, when it comes to the type of player that will call off a top pair hand, I would like to know that. The theoretical loss or expectation that we give up (the price to call) would be well worth it to know if this person will stack off with TP.

If the player is a person that would stack off with TP, it will happen fairly quick and we would want to be the one having the hand against them.

1. Pay for information.
2. Raise to define opponent's hand. (Sometimes)

Cool, thanks.

If there ever a time where you could check to define opponent's hand? Like this flop seems like a good one for that because we only lose to QQ, quads, and trips with a better kicker.

Why are we 3-betting pre with an implied odds hand? That's a rhetorical question.

I thought this was a fold, but wanted to make sure that I wasn't crazy. I feel river range is pretty much going to be AQ a large portion of the time. QQ, JJ, KQ-QTish is also possible. Missed heart draws, AJ, and 5x is going to be very rarely seen. Would you say this assumed range is fairly accurate?

I made a tilting call and he did in fact have AQ. :'(

So he had AQ. Bad break for you. If it had bricked off, what amount do you think he would have called on the end? That was my idea of seeing what he played. Do you think he would have called the same 30 he bet with TP?

Your range is pretty good. Again though, hard to say since he is new to the table.

As Vin said, probably should not be 3 betting with this hand against an unknown opponent.

@schmidts31:
Had he checked river I probably would have checked back since there are more hands that beat me than I beat that call. AJ, and TT-88 may call but even those are probably folding a lot of the time.

I'm a big fan of 3-betting some of my suited connectors here even readless. A lot of recreational players play a fit or fold strategy against 3-bets. I think there is an argument to be made that 3-betting any two suited cards would be profitable readless. I'm not going to do that though, because over time my opponent's will adjust. Also, it makes the game unnecessarily complicated.

I don't 3B UTG raises with this, you're gonna get 4B a fair bit and I really want to play against those hands with this one IP without paying out the *** for it.

I call in these spots too often myself, it sure looks like he has AQ. I bet if he checks river though I might have to make it small to get paid off.

Thanks for the info Godson. My apologies on my thoughts about calling...I was thinking this was your raise only for some reason. Kind of odd now looking at it how I missed that. I believe you are correct with the range and that villain is likely on a Queen.

If it was just a single raise, I would be more apt to call and see his hand as that is getting pretty deep with 1 pair to river.
As played tough break. Good post regardless.

Hardly any implied odds online wouldn't you agree?
Either implied odds or steal value will make this spot profitable, HERO has obviously gone down the stealing path and lucked out with a dream flop and an unfortunate river

sch, did you recently become unfrozen from 2003 and are spouting garbage that was garbage even back then? I doubt decent players even did what you are saying back then. I sure didn't.

River seems like an easy fold. Well played on flop and turn though!

If only it was sincere, then it'd be something...

**** this guy, call.

easy fold 4 me.
Have to be a fish to call, but $30 in 70 always is a value