This deserves its own thread. I'm lazy at the moment but if anyone cares I can provide links to these courses.

Maricopa County, Arizona has more golf courses than any other county in the country. Which is interesting because perhaps only 25% of the county is inhabited (primarily Phoenix and its surrounding communities) and a lot of courses exist in adjacent Pinal county.

In a really sad state of developments, I'm hearing increasingly bad reports from some of these tracks. Off the top of my head:

- Southern Dunes was an ambitious development several years ago. A mens-only club designed by Fred Couples, it is a 7500 yard course with a lot of character and no houses on it. They had an impressive membership roll but probably opened a few years too late - and its location 40 minutes south of town no doubt didn't help. They initially sold off land on which they were going to build a par-3 course to a developer, then sold off more land on which sits the current 13th hole forcing a redesign, then sold the entire course to the developer who changed the name to Royal Dunes. Then the club went bankrupt, was bought, and is now a Troon Golf public facility. All the members who invested ~$50K in equity got nothing in return. It is called Southern Dunes again.

- Apache Stronghold was a highly regarded daily fee/resort/casino course about an 90 minutes east of Phoenix that had the unfortunate distinction of being close to nothing other than meth labs in nearby Globe. It was ~7500 yards and got rave reviews. I didn't even know about this closure until reading about it in Golfweek recently, which is also weird because I remember seeing them showing ads for the course in recent weeks during Suns games.

- other private country clubs, most notably to me Quintero, Talking Rock, and Prescott Lakes, have had ongoing trouble filling their membership rolls and I've heard reports of them going public in the near future. All three of these courses are fantastic so I'd hate for them to shut down completely.

An interesting note about these tracks is that they mostly exist outside of town, i.e. the closer ones such as Arizona CC, Phoenix CC, Paradise Valley CC, etc. seem to be getting by. I don't know if it's an older / more established membership base or what, but I'd guess that's why.

Are there any stories where you live of the economic hardship forcing courses to close, go public, or otherwise alter their policies?

Grand Rapids MI courses hurting. 2 country clubs down so far. A couple public courses won't open.

Northern Michigan - a well regarded Tom Doak design, High Pointe, not opening this season.

I know Detroit country clubs are hurting big time, but I can't find convenient article links.

The golf season hasn't started in Michigan yet - it will be interesting (and by interesting I mean depressing) to see just how many places decide they just can't make it this summer.

I've heard pretty much no one made money in golf last year... I realize there's exceptions to this statement, but the industry has been hit hard.

Callaway Golf just cut 700 jobs.

Golf course openings in 2008 lowest in 20 years.

started playing again just recently and my rounds in socal on a weekend have been around 4 hours and change. Last time I played frequently about 4 years ago we'd be playing close to 5 hour rounds on the weekends. I don't see any courses dropping prices? Why is that so?

A private Nicklaus designed course opened up down the street from me in 2006 in a gated community. Rumors are swirling that the course will have to go public. This wouldn't be a surprise as I see no traffic going to or from the course.

I mean, I respect who ever it is that puts the money up for some of these places, but does it make any of you secretly happy that some of them are going busto? I mean, a place charges like $300/round, should I feel bad if it goes busto? Or they wanna be all snotty and exclusive..

when they charge that much, they are not getting most of their revenue through green fees (unless it's on the overrated list).

private clubs are definitely going to feel the crunch, and public ones too, but really, with fewer places to play, it should help cheaper clubs to stay solvent.

i am worried a bit about munis, as their budgets often get drained by the city/county councils. i've seen as much as 25% of their revenue stolen to pay off city debt, and who knows how much more they have to pay for maintenance because the contractors are chosen based on the council bid process.

diablo grande - paterson, ca (unfortunately)

the ranch - san jose, ca (hopefully)

For all us public/municipal golfers: be prepared for sharply reduced staffing this season.

Question is will that reduction in staffing show up in the condition of the golf courses?

I don't want to see anybody go out of business. However, the economic downturn could have some beneficial results. Golf has gotten too expensive, too slow, too far from its roots. It is more than OK to play a cheap course with 8 clubs on foot. In fact, it is a better form of the game than that played at many over manicured, over built, over the top courses. A brown patch is OK. Doing without the fake waterfall is an improvement. Firm turf is good. greens that are shaggy by the standards of tour prima donnas are fine.

Golf course architecture will, fortunately, change some. Hopefully guys like Doak and Coore/Crenshaw should get some work, and hopefully their courses won't be bull dozed/ go busto.

People have lost perspective and valued things that didn't matter much. Like the color of sand in the bunkers or insisting that fairways get mowed to make a nice pattern. The simplicity and fun got left out. For those who had fun playing as a kid, will you have more fun at a mediocre design expensive upscale public course than you did playing at a crappy municipal course carrying your cheap bag and using mismatched clubs? Not saying you have to go get some lousy clubs, but the fun in golf is not always tied to price. You can have fun even if you get a bad lie sometimes. It is part of the game and OK. You don't need a new driver every year. You don't need everything perfect.

That doesn't mean I don't like a nice course, and I don't play a muni as my main course anymore. But things in golf got out of whack. Scaling back some could bring more players in, which golf needs. If the economic downturn hits the lower level of courses too hard though, we will have some bigger problems.

I live in Phoenix like the OP and I used to work at OrangeTree in Scottsdale. That place has seen some decline, but being in the middle of Scottsdale in an ideal location has probably helped it survive this economic downturn. Back 4 or 5 years ago, we would basically have 225 golfers a day almost every day from November to April and then all the locals would play during the late spring and summer.

I 100% agree with you that Quintero and Talking Rock are sick tracks. Quintero has some amazing elevated par 3's and difficult, fast greens. Talking Rock is also pretty sweet and was in ridiculously good shape when I played it.

Just for my two cents....Forest Highlands, Pine Canyon and Seven Canyons are my favorite tracks in the state. Forest Highlands will be open forever in Flagstaff because of the quality of the course and the number of rich people that have those sick homes along both courses. I think the fact that they are only open 6 months out of the year or something helps.

Here, here!

I played a sh*tload of golf as a kid on military courses in the 1970's that were very walkable and had a blast. On weekdays a foursome could walk a 6,800 yard course in 3 1/2 hours comfortably.

New players are intimidated and discouraged by the modern golf course. Forced carries, punitive bunkers and tricked up greens are not for the beginner or infrequent player. They need more playable courses on which to cut their teeth.

I hope not, but it's not just going to be the employees. Maybe they'll start cutting back on fertilizer and all the other chemicals they use. Cutting the amount of water used is another very likely option. Maybe cut the fairways and tee boxes every other day.

good thread..

i played a course north of L.A. recently and i think it's my favorite ever (i've played a reasonable number of highly rated ones)....... anyway, it could have been one of the biggest ghost towns i'd ever seen. and it was 36 holes. lost canyons in simi valley if anyone cares.

don't most golf courses re-open in a different format. especially now that there's little real estate development going on. i realize though that the existing members lose everything.

I suppose they do, but I'm not familiar with this happening until recently. Obviously the most common scenario is to turn a private course into a high-end daily fee, but who knows in this economy how many more of those we really need?

That said, I would hate for a wonderful course like Southern Dunes to pack it in, although it's so f'ing far out there that I couldn't see making that drive more than once or twice per year.

Speaking with a friend yesterday whose family are members at Superstition Mountain, he confirmed its woes. It hosted the LPGA event here the last several years as well as a Sr. Tour major (the Tradition) for years prior to that. He said that Lyle Anderson (the developer who used to partner with Nicklaus on designs like Desert Highlands) deliberately let it go into foreclosure and is going to buy it back. I'm not sure I understand the strategy but I'm sure he knows what he is doing. It sits right next to the Gold Canyon / Dinosaur Mtn. course, which is all in all a much more interesting layout, but on the other hand the condition of Superstition Mountain is as good as any course out here. The fairways are absolutely perfect and the greens roll as true as any I've putted.

Too expensive? Probably. Too slow and too far from its roots? I suppose so to, but I don't know how this economy's affect on the golf industry could change either of those.

And sorry, I do generally take a cart when I play, I know that drives you nuts but I don't care about the walking part. However, it is astonishing how slow people can be with the cart process. A week ago we were having our usual money game and both players from the other team took FOREVER to get out of the cart on each hole. Like, it would be their box and my teammate and I would be standing on the tee waiting every hole. A couple of times we just hit out of turn because we were falling behind. I've never understood that - I get to the box, get out, grab my club, walk to the tee. If I'm the one tasked to keep score I will do it later, or while the others are hitting.

As for pace of play, we played behind a junior tournament on Sunday, the youngest division was 13-14 boys and girls but they were brutally slow. The first day was a 5 1/2 hour pace so when we were out there for the second day they were doing their best to shoo the kids along and it was still over five hours on a course that generally moves along at around 4:15. Unfortunately, all the Ben Cranes out there seem to have these kids looking at every putt from four directions, and otherwise taking forever to play. That's going to be a tough problem to fix but these kids were way slower than we were when I played junior golf.

(Those last two paragraphs are totally OT but I couldn't figure out where else to put them.)

Having lived through this the last two years on the course I live on it depends on two things: the weather and the ability of the greens keeper.

I might cave in this year and ride more. I will be playing at a course that is a bit less walking friendly. I guess since golf and the country are collapsing I might as well.

But it is amazing how slow people are in carts. One time I played with guys who were riding and I was walking. Part of it was that I wanted to walk, the other part was that three of them in 2 carts could not keep up with an old fat guy walking. I mean they could be driving in circles chatting while I was 100 yards ahead. Unbelievable. The ranger came out to warn us, and I pointed back at the dithering 3 and said the problem might perhaps be more with them than with me, you know. I ended up on a cart with one of them and we drove in circles and took about 13 weeks to play the last 4 holes. Carts should speed up the game, but somehow they don't.

Tragic the juniors take so long. In addition to the golf ball, the USGA has utterly failed on pace of play. I don't see how they do not DQ many of the pros in the US Open for undue delay.

Anyway, the economy could help because courses won't have the money to expand to 8000 yards and people don't want to take 6 hours to play. Maybe the courses will get things moving. Doubtful, but we'll see.

I was thinking about this afterwards - I checked the scores and the average score of these kids was clearly better than the average golfer, and any excuse for them being slow because they have to walk is at least partly offset by the fact that the holes are close together and sit on one big piece of land.

As for me riding, when it's a blazing hot summer day and I decide to knock out a round with a friend, we can usually get done in about two hours, so I definitely use the cart to my advantage and don't dilly dally.

Do you guys have any clubs like Club Link in Canada where 1 membership gets you on 30 courses?

Damn this is one of the best things I've ever heard of. But it's too good an idea to work in the states.

I wouldn't swear to it, but I think ClubCorp for one has a similar program.

And there is always some level of reciprocity between private clubs. That won't get you on Augusta, but you can play a pretty good variety.

Club Link was born because to many courses in Ontario where going busto so they stepped in and bought them and created the 1 membership many course idea. If someone was savvy they would buy up the cheap courses going under and create that in Southern US it would work really well. Think about all the snow birds that could have a vacation membership and play multiple courses it really works.

This is actually a good idea because it overcomes one of the annoyances of belonging to a club: it's often only one course, and with the monthly nut they hit you up for there's almost an obligation to play there and nowhere else. I've made it analogous to marriage and to play anywhere else would be "cheating", even though being in that relationship makes the other courses look more desirable because you're tired of playing the same old course all the time. Although belonging to a super high-end place like Desert Mountain with like six different courses on the premesis would be pretty sweet.

A conglomeration of clubs would allow for lower operating costs. There's precedent, of course - Troon Golf manages several dozen courses, and American Golf was gobbling up courses left and right in the 90s. However, without fail American Golf would strip the budgets bare and let the courses go to hell, but I would hope that some private membership setup would prevent that from happening.