The original title of that movie was going to be White Men Can't Jump because they Don't Work Hard Enough at it

http://www.tampabay.com/features/can...actice/1159357

I think it's detrimental to the thread to start picking out the three or five or whatever people out of an entire history of professional sports and saying "See?? They worked hard! Anyone can do this" as though they are the only ones that have put in the proper amount of time and that anyone who couldn't rise to their level just didn't try hard enough. L O ****ing L. Seriously.


But to really keep the discussion on track, I propose the following scenario:

Imagine a world where everyone goes about their business until they're twenty. At that point, society demands that everyone spend their twenties devoted to the game of golf...after all, it's our planet's heritage and every proud man and woman is required to dedicate their lives to learning how to get the ball in the hole. Schools around the world are filled with people learning this game, from top notch instructors, and they devote every hour they realistically can to learning and playing this game. Once they hit 30, their ability to play the game determines how they are placed in the work force. Those that can't play as well as others are destined to be trash men, plumbers, etc. The very best get the cushy well paying jobs.




What percentage of people in this hypothetical world would make it to scratch golf by the time they're 30? I'd imagine a lot more than just 10%. Of course, statistically, I'm sure there would still be a bell shaped curve of distribution, but I guarantee that the peak of that curve is a lot closer to scratch golf than you'd think.

Now, I mostly agree with your sentiment about how such a small percentage of people in todays society would have the mental fortitude to get down to scratch, and that's where we are in agreement. But I must disagree about there being a natural "talent" that people are born with that make or break them when it comes to their potential.

I think it's more of a product of mental/psychological upbringing and what people's trained. learned belief systems end up being. Tiger was told since the day he was born that he was going to be the greatest ever. Being taught how to win at such a young age, and growing up in competitive environments brings the expectation to succeed to a much higher level than some poor average joe that gets given a set of old blades from a garage sale and gets shoved out the door by mommy "Go play golf. Be home by dinner".

These unlimited resources that we keep discussing in this thread, does it involve going back in time and unlearning what you already know about success? The average person nowadays does not know what it takes to succeed at anything.

Interesting. Thanks for posting this.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/93...-golf-1023645/

I was actually going to lock this thread without realizing the other one existed, but looks like merge incoming.

The point of the thread is about this specific guys situation and his chances of getting below a 2 handicap or to scratch or thereabouts which resulted in the generalizations.

There aren't unlimited resources but I think we can assume some reasonable plans and estimates were made and it was determined the resources available were sufficient to support the 6 year, 10,000 hour plan.

I definitely don't think this guy can become the Spud Webb of golf but Spud Webb is the equivalent of Corey Pavin not of a scratch golfer.

How about a different hypothetical. Take ten boys aged ten, and send them to a golf boot camp. While there they spend hours each day studying all of the fundamentals of golf. They play two or more rounds a day, and spend hours on the range. When it's dark or raining they watch videos of great players and study their technique. They are fed the best foods and have rigorous exercise routines designed to develop their golfing muscles, as well as psychological help to perfect their mindsets. Then, if they do not achieve certain measurable levels at certain time periods, they are beaten or otherwise disciplined.

Now given those conditions, how many of those kids do you think would be scratch players or better by the time they were 16 or 17? BO says none, or maybe at most one. Anyone think he's right? I happen to think it's more likely that ALL of them would, and that most would probably be stars at the college level and probably have a better than even money shot at the PGA tour in their 20's.

And, for what it's worth, I think we'll probably have a chance to bet on that proposition, 'cause I'd wager a buck or two that one or more schools just like that open in China before the year 2020. Any takers on that one?

Nice post Reid. I think maybe Bo is just using some poor word choice. If he said "99% of the population do not have the time, energy, and determination to work at something hard enough to achieve it" everyone would agree. But he is ignoring effort way too much and basically saying that the general population has a ceiling on their golf ability that no amount of work can overcome. I think many of us disagree with this.

I can't think of one super successful person I know personally, that didn't work extremely hard at their craft. It's just not sexy to spend much time discussing that though, so it gets buried in the story. I read a lot of business books about startups, and often you get the idea that "they had an idea", <some time passes>, "they are a multi million dollar company". Well in that <time passing> part of the story, they are working their asses off! Until you go through the experience, skip an anniversary dinner because a few more lines of code need to be fixed, wake up in your office chair with the laptop still on in front of you, etc. you don't know about the work that got put in. But nobody wants to hear about that stuff 10 years down the road, its just the details.

BO, I know you played at a high level, are you saying its fair to say that you didn't work that hard and you were just lucky to have talent? I feel your argument mostly diminishes your own accomplishments, as I'm sure you practiced your ass off too!

As a couple of recent posts have alluded to so much of this depends on age.

A 10 year old with unlimited resources has such a better chance of becoming scratch than a 40 year old.

That's why I mentioned waiting until everyone was 20

If I understood Gladwell correctly, he didnt say that anyone who spent 10,000 hours can be proficient at a craft. He stated that given certain natural abilities, one would have to put in that much dedicated practice to be at the top.

Reid, what's hypothetical about being awesome at golf and getting a cushy job? Look at ship!!

I don't know if you remember, last year I made a post about trying to get to scratch.. I wouldn't say I got to scratch, but I did have some under par rounds, and stretches where 75 was a bad score, so... I must say, the whole process was incredibly enjoyable and fulfilling, and as you mention, made me understand what it took to be successful at something. **Edit , I didn't get to practice as much as I wanted as my course is 45km away, and the heat here is a bit unbearable after a while. So I'd say I practiced every other day, for maybe 2hrs avg, and probably 3 rounds a week.**

back to the cushy job comment..It's funny, I remembered saying that I thought being good at golf would be a good venue for meeting people. Well, during one round, I was introduced to a local guy. I had 5 birdies that day and shot 73. I was given a job offer from him a couple of weeks later! Coincidence??

Without taking this too deep.. I think jewish people are incredibly successful in todays society, and I also think they are the biggest subscribers to busting your ass to getting awesome at something.

I definitely believe all of these kids will become scratch players some time before 17.

Given such a small percentage of world's population start golf early enough to be a pro, yes I agree that most of these kids will be stars at the college level and good chance at going pro. Now if you say baseball/basketball then no they dont have a good chance at making it to the pros but still more likely than average college players.

Hey dinopoker, I got completely smashed last night and drove 20 miles home. Driving drunk must be safe!!