Once you move to a point where putting straight down the fall line results in missing the hole, then all putts aimed at any part of the hole will break in one direction.

If straight downhill goes into the hole just off center, then putts at the right edge break left and putts at the left edge break right.

Any putt traveling straight downhill experiences this condensing effect, whether it happens to be traveling at the direct center of the hole, or 1 inch right of dead center. It is still traveling straight downhill and experiences the same effects.

Brocktoon, did you read my edit?

If your point is that his numbers don't prove anything, I agree with you. If your point is that break doesn't matter, then you're very very wrong. I'd hate if your back and forth with me is solely to set up a boom.gif on Ship. I don't have time for games.


I think we both know that the make percentages are very much tied to the break and that if we knew some sort of formula that can model the putt using all the variables such as slope, speed of green, etc, we could probably take the launch conditions and come up with some answers....but short of having a model like that, we can't look at a putt on paper and figure out the make percentages (the simplest case being a flat putt)

Arod,

This diagram is extremely flawed, and for obvious reasons. This is plane slanted downhill, basically the same as lifting one end of a pool table.

Here he shows a ball hit from 1 inch to the right of the center of the table, traveling down to the other end and ending up 1 inch to the right of the center of the table inexplicably taking a curved path.

If you lifted one end of a pool table evenly, wouldn't a ball rolling from 1 inch right of center on the lifted end travel in a straight line in order to strike the far wall 1 inch right of center?

It is traveling straight down the fall line. Where the hole is, or even if there is a hole is irrelevant.

Thanks for the response. I really feel like this contradicts the laws of gravity. If there is some sort of documentation that supports your position I'd really appreciate a link.

No. Now I have, and thank you.

I knew you would be able to see it clearly. The diagram is a farce.

NXT, if you look at it again I'm sure you will see why. You done goofed.

So it's a straight downhill plane, correct?

His image is showing a hole on a downhill ridge. Because it's showing balls heading down 2 different fall-lines (diverging from the ridge, both right and left of the hole).

It's like a hole being on a hip roof ridge.

Arod,

Can you please go over the exchange between us and give your thoughts. It's all spelled out. I'm really surprised no one else has chimed in. It's fairly straightforward.

That is not my point. My point is he was able to calculate the make % of a breaking putt with just the Standard deviations he measured at the hole. Nowhere did he have to account for how much break there was.

I agree creating an exact formula to model a breaking putt would be very difficult. Lucky for us we do not need to do that to determine if funneling existed. All we have to look at is calculated standard deviations of a dead straight flat putt, and compare them to the standard deviations we observe on a breaking putt. If they are more narrow then funneling occurred and the make % went up.

I mean I kind of understand where you are coming from but I don't think it works the way you are assuming. The pool example you are giving is definitely poor.



Here I have drawn a pool table that has one side lifted higher than the other. Let's just say the angle is very very small like .05%. You are saying that the ball will roll straight down the table and contact the other end at the exact same point it started? I would thoroughly disagree with that. Clearly the ball will always move to the right, just how much depends on the steepness of the slope.

One last Sigh and I'm seriously done. Later man. (like, super serious this time)

Unless I'm missing something, NXT is wrong here. It doesn't matter where the putt starts, once it is heading directly down the slope and not across it the convergence effect will happen.

When it starts heading directly down will obv depend on the distance it started off that directly downhill slope and the pace at which it is moving on the horizontal axis.

How do cats purr? Why does the moon appear bigger on the horizon? What is going on in this thread?

3 of the many things science CANNOT explain or answer. I'm going to go practice my putting now instead of reading why I should not make putts. I'd recommend the same to others.

No matter how far offline the putt is hit, left or right, eventually gravity will pull it straight down on a line that matches that of the plane.

EDIT: The ball doesn't contact the end of the table "due South" from where it starts. It will roll to the side a little, then contact the wall some distance next to "due South".

The ball will NEVER (ignoring stupid things like imperfections in the felt) contact the table due South of where it starts unless it is hit on a perfectly straight face angle, which is perpendicular to the slope.

Of course not, that would be an inanely stupid thing for me to say.

Your diagram has nothing to do with I am speaking of. I'm talking about picking up the back end and rolling the ball to the front end, lengthwise. There is no side slope, we are talking about balls rolling STRAIGHT DOWNHILL. Where are you getting side slope from?

Yes.

No. I am talking about a ball placed 1' right of center, which is then started on a line directly aimed at the point on the other side of the table 1' right of center. This ball will travel in a perfectly straight line directly parallel to the centerline of the table. Balls starting slightly to the left of this line I just described will break right, and vice versa, just as we all agree that straight downhillers aimed at the center of golf holes do.

YES! This is the line I refer to. Is there any reason this line cannot take place 1 inch to the right or left of a parallel line aimed at the center of a golf hole?

You still haven't got anyone in this thread to agree with you on this.

You are just using a definition of funneling to make your argument correct regardless of everything else. You haven't shown that planar putts do not exhibit your definition of funneling. Your definition of funneling could be described as "make% funneling". The only funneling that should be excluded in this breaking-putt-argument are "green slope funneling effects".

When you said, we are excluding obvious funneling putts, that meant (for most of us) we are excluding slopes on the green that funnel the putt, not including planar slopes. That doesn't exclude other parts of physics that cause "make% funneling." For example, gravity. We can see how gravity causes "make% funneling" on downhill putts. What if gravity helps planar breaking putts in some way? What if other things in the physics of a planar breaking putt that you haven't thought of causes the make% to increase--are you just going to declare everything that causes the make% to increase other than launch distribution as funneling?

And Brock is dead right about downhill putts.

Your second quote is in response to my post about how NXT said "from where the ball started". I thought he was talking about hitting a putt that starts 1" to the side of Due North from the hole. And hitting it a tad "sideways" to try to hit the ball into the center of the hole.

If you hit a putt straight downhill that starts 1" (you said 1' which is feet) left or right of DUE NORTH (aka straight uphill) from the hole, the ball will roll straight down and should still fall into the hole since the hole has over 4" diameter. Obviously not talking about a ball traveling too fast, as we know the effective size of the hole shrinks if the ball is traveling too fast.

You are correct, Brocktoon. That's why I wanted to make sure I was certain what you guys were talking about because this is so obvious to me that I'm surprised NXT doesn't see it this way.

OK I was very confused. When he said his ball was moving right down the fall line, it got me because as I think in the golf world fall line is used as a point running through the center of the hole.

This is what Brocktoon is talking about, I just wasn't understanding it very clearly.


And thus some putts would react like this


The problem I'm having now is if you move to the right of the dead straight line to the hole, thus introducing side tilt if your target is the center of the hole, how a putt can then break to the left up the slope. Yet it's right there so it must be true. To me it just seems that as you move to the right of the straight center line, all balls hit at the center of the hole and left would break right(which is what my picture from before shows). Didn't think about ball started right.

How this would effect the make % of this putt would be tough to determine.

I'm terrible at MS Paint, but I just took far too much time scrawling out this little gem anyway. NXT, could you please humor me...



The black center line represents a putt hit STRAIGHT DOWNHILL. The red lines represent putts that start varying degrees right of that, green lines represent putts started varying degrees left of center.

-Do we both agree that the center line travels dead straight?

-Do we both agree that any putt hit any amount RIGHT of the center-line (RED paths) will experience a BREAK TO THE LEFT?

-Do we both agree that any putt hit any amount LEFT of the center-line (GREEN paths) will experience a BREAK TO THE LEFT?

Surely we agree on those 3 points.

Bingo!

Now if I could only get this hair I've pulled from my head back in...

EDIT: Disregard my slop above. FWIW my next question was going to be, "what happens when the black line runs through the hole 1 inch to the right or left of center?" As I'm sure you've surmised.

One planar putt does for sure exhibit my definition of funneling(not quite sure why you are calling it my definition, again this is straight from the dictionary). The dead straight downhill putt exhibits it and the paper proved it.

It only breaks left if you start it to the RIGHT of the fall line (ie >1" to the right of the center of the cup). The line that intersects the hole 1" to the right of center is the straight line that all others converge around.

Haven't read more yet, but can I book $2 million that drawing is wrong?

I'll read the rest now....just wanted to get that up asap.