Take care Ship. I'll look you up if I'm ever in your neighborhood.

I agree the internet jokes aren't funny...

So the dead straight(or as real world straight as you can get) 3 footer would be easier than a 3 footer up a 45* slope? This has been my stance the entire time, introducing slope, be it uphill/downhill/sidehill cannot possibly make it easier due to the laws of physics.

I especially love the 5 footer at a 45* angle uphill. If I push it a "nut hair" yes of course it won't go in. Again on straight putts the line is the most important, but if you get it started on the right line there are quite a few speeds that will allow the ball to go in.

Let's now turn this 5 footer from going up hill at 45* to have it break left to right 45*. Now if you hit it with a "nut hair" too much speed you will run it right though the break and it will never go in. If you hit it with a "nut hair" too little speed the putt will miss low. You have a little more lee way on starting line here, but just about 0 error on pace.

However your whole stance in this entire argument is that adding break to a putt makes it easier than it's straight counterpart. So I guess if given the choice between

A. 5 foot, real world straight putt/flat putt
B. 5 foot putt up a 45* slope
C. 5 foot putt breaking 45* from right to left

you would somehow pick an answer other than A?

Can you really be this dumb?

As a side note, and not something anyone on the breaking putts side has mentioned is how a breaking 100 footer would have to travel further than 100 feet to get to the hole due to going along the break line. Did you guys forget about this factor? So instead of hitting a 100 footer, your adding a few feet and I'm sure that everyone can agree on this one thing, adding distance to 2 similar putts makes the longer one harder to make. And that is irrefutable thanks to a little thing called geometry.

I agree with NXT and think for the most part he's been very reasonable throughout.

I also have enjoyed everything ship has added to this forum and would hate to see you go, sir.

And on a side note way back in this thread I mentioned that when putting a 100 footer you want one that is downhill so you don't have to swing the putter as much thereby reducing the margin for error. Did you guys forget about this factor because not one person commented on it.

BO

In a thread full of hilarious terrible displays of intelligence, this one may take the cake.

So rather than hit the putt dead straight(and thus requiring the shortest and most accurate putting stroke), you would rather play some break thus ensuring that you must swing the putter harder to get it to travel the extra distance and in the mean time INCREASING the margin of error in your stroke?

OK GOT IT.

Logging on under a new account when you're banned is grounds for this account being perma'd. Tuq perma'd one of my accounts when I logged on to ask why he banned me. Anyway I'm trying to tread really lightly in this thread now because I know any slip-up results in a ban from Tuq.

This is just so wrong I can't even explain how wrong it is. Why do you think the physical world doesn't have laws of motion?

No, we are not. The reason why a pro is bothered somewhat by a "straight putt"... first of all I define a real-world straight putt as a putt that is basically impossible to read. In the real world, there is no such thing as a completely straight putt. This is why pros don't like them, because if they play center of the cup and don't know if the ball will break a milimeter left or a milimeter right... it matters, because they are automatically foregoing a milimeter of cup width. So they "like" breakers because they THINK they can pick a line whose cone encompasses the entire cup. But this doesn't change the fact that this line is equally hard to pick as the line they pick on the "straight" putt. They just feel warm and fuzzy inside because they think it does.

If you were putting on a sheet of glass, and you were a pro, and someone told you this putt is 100% straight, I guarantee they would prefer it over a putt on a sheet of glass that had 6 inches of break. Guarantee. Because they don't have to read the straight one if someone tells them it's PERFECTLY straight. They just aim center of cup and hit it. This is why people stare over a straight putt for so long because it's very helpful if they can break it down to a milimeter of break. Of course, it's still a really ****ing straight putt and they'll almost always aim center cup, and yes, they'll make it far more often than any putt with break. No idea why you think otherwise. Yes it has.

Cool story. Thanks, Dr. Phil.


Farewell. We've got Weaver, so, we're good.

The reason why he "doesn't like" a dead straight putt is because no putt is dead straight in the real world and it bothers him that his eyes and brain are not powerful enough to determine if it breaks a milimeter left or right. It's still a really easy putt and he's lying if he says he'd prefer it over a breaker. It's a defense mechanism or something. Or just an exaggeration of his hatred for 99.9%-straight putts.

Breakers are not easier to make even if you knew the line to take. Not to mention the fact that they are actually HARDER to make in the real world because it is not easy to read a break with the human eye. If you had the Fidelity green break line out there on both a straight and breaking putt, they would be equally difficult. Now take away that Fidelity line and the breaking putt becomes HARDER than the straight putt, because of way more likelihood of error in spatial reasoning. This is all there needs to be said about this subject, really. It does not matter that more lines fall into the breaker, because you have to choose a SPECIFIC line when you strike the ball, and a specific speed that you think matches that line.

We think 3 footers that you can start right-edge and hammer are easy. Because we're "taking the break out". You hammer it good starting at the edge and you are sure you won't miss it right. And you hammer it enough that you're pretty sure the ball will cross the hole's path before traversing the left lip.

This same advantage is also present in a straight 4-footer, though. You can hammer it just the same and start it center cup and you're equally likely to make it. Probably more likely over a large enough sample.

It just gives you a fake sense of the warm and fuzzies on the breaking putt because you can basically eliminate missing right. That's great, but it does not change the probability of making it at all. Whatever you eliminate on the right edge is made up by the times you hit it too soft and lip out on the left. The straight putt guy doesn't know which side his miss will be on so that seems scary but the probabilities are exactly the same.

If ship was tempbanned because of what happened in this thread, that seems way too harsh.

Two last paragraphs of CWs post #229 are among the best of this thread though.

You call someone a "****ing idiot" and see if you get banned, then.

FWIW, I didn't report him for that. But it's certainly banworthy, when you consider the context.

When I make comments like this I get warned. And I'm trying to find out why ship got banned.

Please don't make comments on what pros think. You have absolutely no clue how pros think when it comes to golf. If you're not a pro or haven't played competitively, you've got no business commenting on what "pros think". It's fine coming from NXT.

That's kind of like saying we've got Kobe so we're good when Shaq left. Then it took them years to climb out of the basement. One does not celebrate when a top dog leaves, one should realize the forum will have less valuable input which makes it less useful.

BO

There were plenty of insults flying the other way too. If that's what he got banned for, there should be more bans handed out.

Please comment on what I actually wrote, instead of thumbing your nose at yet another amateur golfer.

Is some fringe LPGA pro's opinion about golf better than a man who has never earned money at golf but who is good enough to mop the floor with her? Just because she makes money at golf?

Stop attacking my golf skill and try simply responding to what I wrote, because it makes perfect sense. You do not have to be a golf pro to understand why a straight putt can be unnerving. The mind is bothered by not knowing which way the break goes because every putt in the real world breaks one way or the other (or back and forth). A smart golfer knows this, yet he cannot figure it out so it's unnerving. If it's a flat piece of glass and God himself tells you it's perfectly straight, you are going to step right up, aim for center cup and hammer it home and your brain will be almost completely relaxed.

I have not attacked anyone's golf skill in this thread and don't plan to. Your post above was trying to describe in detail "what pros think", your words. All I said is that you have no idea whatsoever "what pros think" on the golf course. It would be like me saying "this is what MLB hitters think" simply because I can hit a baseball. I have zero clue what major league hitters think and never will and there's nothing wrong with that.

If you want to discuss your point, say this is what I think, or this is what a typical golfer thinks, or some such.

And we don't putt on glass on the course. It's kind of like the Pelz discussion about comparing a putting machine on a pool table vs. on an actual putting green.

BO

Ship,

First of all, I 100% agree with the post above. However, when you come in with things again citing your experience and "golf is not played in a video game" as reasons for you being correct, you pretty much exemplify the point I made before. You're taking your experience at the highest levels of golf as absolute knowledge, and here, it's not. It's funny that PHB mentioned the putting line they show on broadcasts; if golf is not played in a video game or has no formulas that determine a speed and line for a particular putt to go in, do they just get really lucky every time a professional rolls the ball right along the line and it drops?

Either way, I'd hoped that you would cool off in the one day intermission rather than turn yourself into the martyr you have. I would be extremely disappointed if you left over the horrendous de-rail this thread decided to take, and I think I speak for the rest of the forum when I say so. If you guys want to continue arguing about this in another thread, I have no problem with that. As I said, the thread's course really disappointed me and I think it ruined what otherwise was a topic that I looked forward to possibly attempting and comparing measured results. Hell, take it over to SMP and see what they say. Just don't leave over a silly internet slap-fight that got a bit out of hand.

BO,

Rather than address any of the points he made, you skirt an otherwise intelligible post simply because he "does not know what pros think," "has not played golf at the highest level," blah blah blah. This is exactly what I was talking about in post #229, and it's what I'm fed up with in this forum. Guess what? Many members of the front office that built the 2004 Boston Red Sox, including Bill James, never played the game at the highest level. Many members of the analytics departments of just about every major league team (lol Phillies) have probably never played the game at the highest level. While this next statement may be mind-blowing, they don't need to look in the mind of a major league hitter to find the ones that are going to create the most runs for their teams and help them win championships. Wisdom and experience are often invaluable tools when it comes to many walks of life, but they are just as often excuses for ignorance.

By telling me to not comment on what I think pros think, because I have not played golf at the highest level, is attacking my golf skill. Whether you realize it or not. You don't realize it, and that's what makes you you.

I could tell that idiot who wrote that Golf Digest article-for-profit not to tell me what Tiger Woods thinks because he's not actually Tiger Woods, even though they have both played pro golf. Where does the line end, BO?

Are you telling me my concern on a "straight" 4 footer is not close to a pro's concern on the same putt? We're both not unnerved a bit by the fact that we're not sure if it actually breaks right or left so we're resigned to just aim center and hope a mis-hit doesn't give up too much of the cup? Really?

Come on, man. Be better than this.

Earlier in the thread before we derailed the way we did NXT posted his results. At that point we were still being civil and mature so rather than point something about this post I figured what’s the point. However since I’m done here (thanks for saying my posts will be missed guys, but this really is just too much of a time suck) I’ll point something out about NXT’s trial. It is a fraud, and quite obviously one at that. Where exactly were you putting from that you didn’t feel the need from 100 feet to move a couple of those balls out of the way? As I wrote below I could only putt about 6 balls before needing to clear the way for an accurate test. You simply did not perform this experiment, period.

Another note I’d make from this post before we derailed is my exact representation of what I thought the bet would be. I always maintained it wasn’t massively –EV.


I understand that is your point, what you seem incapable of grasping (at least you won’t admit it) is that yes an uphill putt if mi**** has physics working against you in all circumstances. But there are times that a mi**** breaking putt can still be holed. Ex. A putt hit too high on the line but with less speed still has a fighting chance. There are circumstances where a bad putt can go in. You see it all the time on TV when a pro laughs at a ball dive last second and duck in the sidedoor. I’m not sure how you are so hard headed (aside from purely trolling, and if that’s the case I truly applaud your efforts as they have been monumental) to not be able to agree to this point.

As for the push it a nuthair comment, you agree emphatically with “of course it won’t go in”. What you fail to understand is in the scenario I am describing I am saying your straight putt starts inside the hole still yet due to the line it is traveling on it will miss right even though the line to the hole is straight.


Now to your A, B , C question I would agree wholly that A is the way to go. And you might even find a straight and flat 5 footer, maybe. What you won’t find is a straight AND flat 8 footer. That is why I was very specific in stating 8 feet over and over. Read up a bit on course design. I have never contended anything other than I would choose a straight AND flat putt. What I have noted over and over but apparently you can’t read is that putt does not exist in reality. Maybe at some ****box poorly designed course it does, but not on any course of even remotely reasonable design.

Apparently you didn’t read the part where I’m done with that account and this forum, so perma-ban is like shooting an inmate headed to the gas chamber.

What professionals are bothered by is the fact that they have learned that the straight putt is indeed harder to make. Give them a little credit with psychology that they have the ability to eventually settle on a line and commit to it. They are professionals and the best in the world ffs. Do you think the guy on the spacewalk today is thinking about the last guy that almost drowned on a spacewalk or is he putting that out of his mind and focusing on the task at hand? Yet another exact of where your superior intellect in some areas is completely negated by your lacking in others.

Clearly in a vacuum I would rather putt on a sheet of glass a dead straight AND DEAD FLAT putt. Nor have I ever said anything remotely contrary to that.

There are certainly putts that are dead straight in the real world, many of them in fact.


I said golf isn’t played in a video game because he made a lame ass reference to Mortal Combat, not because I’ve played in the US Open (have I ever told you guys that story? It’s a great one!). I thought about the fact the there are no formulas comment with regard to that technology specifically. First of all, yes that thing does work pretty good, but not perfectly. However I have seen many times the ball is nowhere close to the implied line and goes in. I mean literally will be 3-5 feet away from the line and go in with relatively good speed. That gimmick is neat and somewhat impressive, but it is not a perfect science. I do agree with you there are a number of times the ball tracks right on the line and in the hole.

I’m not trying to martyr myself, notice I haven’t posted in here in a month prior to this thread. I was sick of this already. I thought the initial bet was actually interesting so I thought I’d give my OPINION and then I decided it was a nice day I’d go try it. I fully admitted I was WAY off on the difficulty level I expected immediately upon actually doing the exercise. However, when this went off the rails I was sucked back into a pointless internet debate which I am clearly correct in. Due to my complete lack of self control I’ve been fight the “somebody on the internet is wrong and I have to prove it” mentality. That is why I am simply going to change my password so I can’t even have the option of logging on. Sure I am playing out this debate a bit from my super sweet-Tuq permabanwothry- account, but I don’t give a **** if it is banned.

I appreciate the sentiment and obviously the fact you came to watch me in NJ. You are certainly one of the good guys. I do think you are missing the point as well though. Read what Reid and I have stated. Ponder the possibilities that it is correct and think it through. Then you will see that your attacking my intellect as well by telling me to stay out of math discussions is unfounded. Since BO’s math resume was requested earlier I’ll remind you of mine…and yes, I realize I’ve said this before here, but I did max the math SAT, graduate with a 4.0 in Finance and Economics, and was an academic All-American while playing D-1 golf. I’m sure everyone here has the same pedigree just from an Ivy League school and not A&M. I sadly realize my skills due to atrophy are GREATLY diminished from years of not exercising my brain while playing golf for a living, but I am quite confident I am capable of following any string of thought that can be mustered up in a golf forum.

Those in that front office or analytics team most likely did play at a high level thought. Even if they didn’t, they have direct access to the players and can ask “hey, what the **** were you thinking there?” and hear the answer. I doubt ARod has had too many in depth conversations with a single person who has teed it up in a PGA Tour event. It is a relevant point and not one to be dismissed. ARod saying “this is what a golf pro is thinking” is laughable, you must see that. Simply the way that is worded makes it laughable. You may not know this, but a golf pro folds shirts, a professional golfer plays in tournaments. You will think I am being high and mighty with that comment, but there is a technical distinction.

Sorry if there are glaring typos here, but I am headed to the nutcracker (kill me) and don't have time to read it over.

Do we need to link the PGA Tour player survey where the vast majority of players can't correctly determine whether face or path determines initial starting direction? Or maybe we should link to some of your old school favorites like Jack writing instructional manuals that ignore the laws of physics?

Arod is exactly right here. It has nothing to do with the putt actually being straight, it's the uncertainty of it that bugs players. A putt that a third of the time went straight, a third of the time went half a cup left, and a third of the time half a cup right would be nerve wracking because 2/3rds of the time your margin for error would be minimal to one side. That's what they are thinking about when trying to read a putt that looks straight. Players want to see some break so they can set the outer bound of the putt themselves.

Because of the uncertainty of the read, not because perfectly straight putts have less margin for error.

As this:

proves.

Really, that part of the post is /thread worthy.

Haha yea... except rather than a 100 foot dead straight/flat putt on glass he'd rather tilt the glass plane a few degrees so the putt breaks bc you have a better chance of making the breaking putt.

How much break does it have to have to all of a sudden be easier? Is there a limit to the amount of break? Certainly not since breaking putts are easier than straight ones right? The more break the easier it becomes right? LOL.

I also wonder at what distance the straight/flat putt becomes harder to make than one that breaks. And I'm very interested to hear how this physics defying discovery is explained.

It was 55 degrees here in NY today so I decided to try and get this thread out of the mire and do the 100 putt/100ft challenge. I was also going to record it and post it into this thread.

Unfortunately, when I got there the green was covered in snow despite how warm it was. Here's a pic:



Looks like this will have to wait until mid March before I can give it a go. When the time comes, and weather permits, I fully intent to get this recorded and posted for the thread.

lol. No wonder he couldn't make it at pro golf, the guy is so mentally weak he has to permanently leave a forum after a lil turmoil from him being proven wrong. And he can't mentally overcome himself to even do that, so he has to change his password to a random 20 digit number wtf hah.

As for the bet, you need more info than "putts like a bogey golfer". We need actual putting statistics or something that can give a better idea about their putting skill level. I would definitely bet on the putter for anyone a 10 handicap or better. I'm not sure where it would become -ev, but I honestly think Most 30 handicappers are still close to break even with that many attempts.

But you said breakers are easier to make because more lines. So why choose the harder putt now?

This is why we have to take it to a hypothetical level to prove.


5 posts and several hours in, it's never been more apparent that you are "done with the forum". What was I thinking.


No they haven't. If they have, please link the scientific study plz. This simply doesn't stand to reason so at least link a study. Plenty of things in the world around us are counter-intuitive but it takes proof to see that and you can't link anything other than BO's Golf Digest for-profit article.


Wait - what? You are arguing that putts that break are easier to make. Now you are saying you would take the level putt. Does this mean you are arguing two sides, or does it mean you are slowly beginning to see the error of your ways?


Technically untrue when grass is the canvas. At a microscopic enough level, a "straight" putt has many breaks left and right as it travels to the hole. Not to mention the dimples on the ball make it such. If you are saying there are no flat putts then there are obviously no straight putts, either.

All this means is the Fidelity line is imperfect. It's still way better than any PRO's eyes. Even though the NERD at Fidelity who masturbates to math formulas and invented the line technology never tee'd it up on the PGA Tour. And this doesn't change the fact that there are lines that will go in given specific speed. I mean ffs, this is why putts fall. If anybody here was omniscient, they could plot every line+speed combo on the green and we could see putts hit DIRECTLY on that line at that speed go in.

Clearly incorrect, you mean.

Yeah you said this like 3 times already.



Nope I clearly don't ever have conversations with people who once tee'd it up in a PGA Tour event. Not you, not BO, not stadler, not even Jeff Maggert, my gardner.

If you disagree with what I actually said then just attack the point. I don't know why you have to get all metaphysical on me and claim my brain is not linked to some specific pro's. You and BO are the ones who claim pros are frightened to death by a straight putt, so why don't you tell us why? The burden of proof is actually on you guys. I was just trying to point out reasons why "straight" putts can be unnerving.

Good golfers do not hate straight putts. They hate not knowing if it is straight or has a suttle break. Since we all agreed there aren't many straight/flat putts, then you can see why it is easy to be concerned if a putt is actually straight or just appears that way. Not knowing for sure or being able to committ is the fear. If you actually KNOW the putt is straight, then there is absolutely nothing to fear or hate at all.