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12-07-2011, 09:10 AM   #106
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Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by spino1i I think the Manzilla video is a little silly. Yes if you measured the path of the arc at the vertical bottom of the arc to hit with a straight path you would have to have an in-to-out arc. But you should only be measuring your path at the infintismal second the club hits the ball (and not the the vertical bottom of the club). In that moment your path needs to be square to the target to produce the straight shot.
Not 100% sure what you are trying to say here tbh. So I am just going to respond to the bold. But if you want to expand I am more than happy to respond again.

The bold is not true. A horizontal swing path of 0 degrees with a face angle of 0 degrees, both relative to target, will result in a ball that ends up left of target, assuming the club was moving downward at impact.

For instance, in order to hit an iron perfectly straight, impact numbers as measured on Trackman would need to be something like:

Face angle, relative to target: 0 degrees
Path, relative to target: 2 degrees left
Vertical path/AoA: 4 degrees down

To be fair, D-plane is a super advanced concept that 99% of people should never worry about.

12-07-2011, 09:15 AM   #107
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,250
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kvitlekh Seems like when I try this I end up hitting it way fat or hitting a straight block.
Fat shots are caused by a single issue. The club bottoms out too soon. The two reasons that can happen are if your weight isn't far enough forward at impact, or if you don't maintain the lag in your downswing. Most amateurs suffer from both.

Without seeing your swing it's hard to give specific advice about what's causing your issues, but those are the two things I would think about. I posted a link in Dr. Old Schools thread that you might want to go look at it as well. Great model for building a golf swing that doesn't hit the ball fat.

12-08-2011, 11:20 PM   #108
banned

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: not a lawyer
Posts: 1,315
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Your Boss It's simple. Youtube D-plane. Here is a long Manzella video that goes into detail. When the club is moving down, that adds an outward component to the path. So a swing that is moving perfectly inline with the target but down towards the ground will actually be slightly in-to-out as it effects the curvature of the ball. In Trackman terms, this means a swing with a 0 degree face angle and 0 degree path will actually result in a slight pull draw. When the club is moving up the opposite is true. A out-to-in component is added. So in practice, to hit an iron perfectly straight, your face would need to be a 0 degrees to target and path would be out-to-in (left) a couple degrees to counteract the issue we are talking about. To hit driver straight, when hit on the upswing, the path needs to be a couple degrees in-to-out (right). This is relatively high level stuff that most people shouldn't worry about. Talking about minute differences really. And without Trackman you would never know to the specificity you needed to anyway to figure this out.
One of the most eye-opening videos online. A must watch for someone trying to understand the mechanics of their golf swing.

 12-09-2011, 02:58 AM #109 grinder     Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 403 Re: Ball Flight Laws Am I right in assuming that it's easier to hit irons/woods off a mat than it is off grass? I hit fat shots off grass way too often, but I think that the club bounces more off the mat (as opposed to the grass where I would be taking a divot too early).
12-09-2011, 09:17 AM   #110
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 856
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kvitlekh Am I right in assuming that it's easier to hit irons/woods off a mat than it is off grass? I hit fat shots off grass way too often, but I think that the club bounces more off the mat (as opposed to the grass where I would be taking a divot too early).
Yes this is true. I'm not sure if it is possible to hit a shot too fat when you are on a mat.

12-09-2011, 01:06 PM   #111
old hand

Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,529
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Your Boss The bold is not true. A horizontal swing path of 0 degrees with a face angle of 0 degrees, both relative to target, will result in a ball that ends up left of target, assuming the club was moving downward at impact. For instance, in order to hit an iron perfectly straight, impact numbers as measured on Trackman would need to be something like: Face angle, relative to target: 0 degrees Path, relative to target: 2 degrees left Vertical path/AoA: 4 degrees down
Trackman updated their glossary because Horizontal Swing Plane and Club Path are easy to confuse.

from their site:
"Swing direction (formerly horizontal swing plane): the orientation
of the swing arc, relative to the target line, where positive
means to the right, negative means to the left. More technically, it
is the horizontal direction the club head is traveling in at the bottom
of the swing arc."

To produce a straight shot you need face angle 0* and club path 0*.

9-iron 60* swing plane, -5* AoA and -3 1/3* swing direction gives 0* club path.
Driver 45* swing plane, +5* AoA and +5* swing direction gives 0* club path.

12-09-2011, 10:42 PM   #112
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Posts: 8,014
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dzh90 Trackman updated their glossary because Horizontal Swing Plane and Club Path are easy to confuse. from their site: "Swing direction (formerly horizontal swing plane): the orientation of the swing arc, relative to the target line, where positive means to the right, negative means to the left. More technically, it is the horizontal direction the club head is traveling in at the bottom of the swing arc." To produce a straight shot you need face angle 0* and club path 0*. 9-iron 60* swing plane, -5* AoA and -3 1/3* swing direction gives 0* club path. Driver 45* swing plane, +5* AoA and +5* swing direction gives 0* club path.
I think this is where me and Your Boss are disagreeing. I am talking about club path and he's talking about swing direction, which apparently is measured as the path the club is going at the exact bottom of the arc. Im pointing out this is a silly thing to measure, when you could just measure the club path at impact.

If the club is travelling down but straight (relative to the target) at impact an the face is square, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the ball to travel any direction but straight (negating the gear effect from an off-center strike) I am talking about the path of the club at impact, NOT the path of the club at the bottom of the swing arc.

 12-10-2011, 02:49 AM #113 old hand   Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,529 Re: Ball Flight Laws It's useful to know why the same swing can produce a draw with an iron and a fade with a driver.
12-10-2011, 03:13 AM   #114
grinder

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 632
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by spino1i I think this is where me and Your Boss are disagreeing. I am talking about club path and he's talking about swing direction, which apparently is measured as the path the club is going at the exact bottom of the arc. Im pointing out this is a silly thing to measure, when you could just measure the club path at impact. If the club is travelling down but straight (relative to the target) at impact an the face is square, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the ball to travel any direction but straight (negating the gear effect from an off-center strike) I am talking about the path of the club at impact, NOT the path of the club at the bottom of the swing arc.
i haven't studied this in-depth, so this will just be an attempt to further the discussion. i'm sure people will correct me where i'm wrong.

suppose you draw a target line on the ground, and then hold a hula hoop at a 60 degree angle to represent the arc of a golf swing aligned down that target line, such that the low point of the hula hoop is touching the ground at a point on the target line. at first, it's natural to think of that point as the point of impact. now, imagine the face of a golf club that is attached to the hula hoop and following the arc. as it approaches the low point of the hula hoop, in the moments before the clubface reaches the bottom of the arc, it is moving downward. but, from a viewpoint looking down the target line from behind, it's easy to see that as the clubface is moving downward, it is moving from inside the target line, rightward, towards the target line. the only point on the hula hoop that is actually on the target line is the bottom the arc, at the point where the hoop is touching the ground and the target line.

for any iron shot, we want the clubface to be moving downward at impact. therefore, the actual point of impact will be behind the low point of the arc. visualize the ground being sand, such that you can push the hula hoop into the sand, until the low point is buried. the point of impact will be where the hoop is visible at ground-level...a distance behind the true low point of the arc. after impact, the club will be continuing downward, into the ground, and moving to the right if viewing down the target line from behind.

in order to have the clubface be moving downward AND straight down the target line as you describe, the hula hoop would have to be perpendicular to the ground. or, the arc of the clubface would have to follow some kind of u-shape that cannot be represented by a hula hoop.

 12-10-2011, 03:23 AM #115 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The kids aren't alright Posts: 8,014 Re: Ball Flight Laws Never mind i figured out why D-plane is important. It has to do with video analysis that any good PGA instructor will use. They will show you the DTL view of your swing to see if your "on plane", but all that shows is whether your plane was pointed at the target, NOT whether your club path was actually pointed at the target at impact and not where the D-plane was pointed. Assuming your a good player and you hit down on the ball with your irons, your iron swing with what looks like a perfect path (on video) will actually present the ball with an in-to-out path, which will cause a push-draw (assuming you close the face a bit to compensate). Given that I am obsessed with hitting the ball as straight as an arrow, this is no good to me. Going to discuss this concept with my instructor tomorrow, i dont think its something he understands lol Last edited by spino1i; 12-10-2011 at 03:44 AM.
12-10-2011, 03:27 AM   #116
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The kids aren't alright
Posts: 8,014
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ryanj247 i haven't studied this in-depth, so this will just be an attempt to further the discussion. i'm sure people will correct me where i'm wrong. suppose you draw a target line on the ground, and then hold a hula hoop at a 60 degree angle to represent the arc of a golf swing aligned down that target line, such that the low point of the hula hoop is touching the ground at a point on the target line. at first, it's natural to think of that point as the point of impact. now, imagine the face of a golf club that is attached to the hula hoop and following the arc. as it approaches the low point of the hula hoop, in the moments before the clubface reaches the bottom of the arc, it is moving downward. but, from a viewpoint looking down the target line from behind, it's easy to see that as the clubface is moving downward, it is moving from inside the target line, rightward, towards the target line. the only point on the hula hoop that is actually on the target line is the bottom the arc, at the point where the hoop is touching the ground and the target line. for any iron shot, we want the clubface to be moving downward at impact. therefore, the actual point of impact will be behind the low point of the arc. visualize the ground being sand, such that you can push the hula hoop into the sand, until the low point is buried. the point of impact will be where the hoop is visible at ground-level...a distance behind the true low point of the arc. after impact, the club will be continuing downward, into the ground, and moving to the right if viewing down the target line from behind. in order to have the clubface be moving downward AND straight down the target line as you describe, the hula hoop would have to be perpendicular to the ground. or, the arc of the clubface would have to follow some kind of u-shape that cannot be represented by a hula hoop.
The problem is easily solved by having the hula hoop point slightly left of target.

12-10-2011, 06:46 AM   #117
veteran

Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,250
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by spino1i I think this is where me and Your Boss are disagreeing. I am talking about club path and he's talking about swing direction, which apparently is measured as the path the club is going at the exact bottom of the arc. Im pointing out this is a silly thing to measure, when you could just measure the club path at impact. If the club is travelling down but straight (relative to the target) at impact an the face is square, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the ball to travel any direction but straight (negating the gear effect from an off-center strike) I am talking about the path of the club at impact, NOT the path of the club at the bottom of the swing arc.
Bold still isn't true.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by spino1i The problem is easily solved by having the hula hoop point slightly left of target.
But it looks like you get it now. Shifting the baseline left a bit essentially makes up for what we are talking about.

And as dzh points out (and thanks for pointing out the updated verbiage!) this is opposite with driver if hit on the upswing.

 02-06-2012, 05:23 PM #118 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Pwnmaha Posts: 13,807 Re: Ball Flight Laws archive bump
 04-11-2012, 02:47 PM #119 veteran   Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,454 Re: Ball Flight Laws Bump for nil han...great minds think alike. edit: bump for luck box...
 04-11-2012, 03:04 PM #120 journeyman     Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 277 Re: Ball Flight Laws My bad ship

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