This page has some more discussion of the ball flight laws that I have found useful. Especially the diagrams and the pics with the directional rods.

todays golf fix was a total let down. michael breed kept talking about side spin, and how it affects backspin. i dont understand if these new ball flight laws and trackman's contributions are in fact laws that this stuff still doesnt hit mainstream. is it only some instructors adhere to this stuff or what? you figure with the resources golf channel has that this stuff would not be addressed already.

Not everyone believes what Trackman's research is showing. It is ignorance at its best.

*I did not see the show, so not sure what Michael Breed said/did not say or whether he is ignorant to the "new" ball flight laws.

well if he's talking about two different spins going on at the same time during a shot, i assume he is ignorant to the new ball flight laws.? i learned that there is only one spin imparted on a ball when struck by a golf club. and only the spin axis being altered one way or the other determines the ball flight.

Just want to say thanks for the details in this thread. Getting insight into the consequences of the path of the club through impact has got me to the point where I can work the ball either way (a lot or a little) and fix unintentional fades and my snap hook.

If the club face doesn't curve the ball and the club path does, then how does a draw bias club work?

Is a draw bias club doing something other than having a more closed club face?

I don't disagree with the ball flight laws, I just can't wrap my head around how a draw bias club is getting the job done.

The face relative to the path is what moves the ball in one direction or another.

A draw biased club tends to have more weight in the heel which shuts the face down easier. So if somebody is coming OTT and swinging out-in with an open face, the ball will start on a line very close to the face angle and curve right b/c the face is open to the path. The draw club will shut the face down and make it more square to the path which leads to less curve.

club champ was correct - manufacturers move weight to change the COG which helps square the face. Many manufacturers de-loft clubs by closing the face (Callaway was famous for this with their Great Big Bertha drivers) - close the face 2* stamp static loft of 7.5 on the club, but when a player swings through with a face that is 2* open, it's actually 9.5* dynamic loft, and the face will be square (since it was closed at address). Thus they hit the club further & straighter than their old club == more club sales to slicers! Early hybrids were very upright to keep the ball from fading as well. There are all sorts of "tricks" that manufacturers/fitters can use to help straighten flight based on the ball flight laws and club properties. "Draw bias" clubs tend to have more weight in the heel, closed face, and upright lie.

Interesting, i didn't know the part about lie angle affecting ball flight. My irons are 2* flat and my normal ball flight with them is fairly straight or a little fade. I have two hybrids that i bought off the rack with no fitting (changed the shafts but thats it) and my normal ball flight with them is a little draw with the occasional sweeping hook thrown in there. Could the difference in lie angles have that much effect or is more probable that other factors are contributing to it?

Couple of things.

I would say the path relative to the face is what causes the curve, not face relative to path. At the end of the day it is effectively the same, but it's important to get people understanding that wherever the face is pointing is where the ball is (generally) going to start.

So, I think the "draw" or "fade" bias is misleading. The clubs are actually pull or push biased. In your example, someone who at impact has the face 3 degrees closed to the target, but with a path 6 degrees left of target, so face is open 3 degrees relative to path, will hit a ball that starts left of center and then fades to the right. If we give them a "draw" club, their face is now 6 degrees closed to target and the path is 6 degrees left of target, so face and path are square. They will now just hit a straight pull instead of a pull slice.

Lie angle as well as the construction of the clubs both play a part in it. I know before the adjustable hybrids, most guys on tour would have their hybrids bent flat and open to keep them from hooking. A small lie adjustment in your case might be all you need to hit them straighter!

CC probably wrote it as face-to-path because that is the terminology used by TrackMan. I see your point, but in most measurements it's worded "face-to-path" and the measurement is how much the face is open/closed relative to the club path.

Sure. Like I said, effectively it's the same thing. The curvature comes from the difference between the two, regardless of the order.

I think for teaching purposes it isn't ideal though. If you can get it into students head that 1) the ball starts where the face is pointing and 2) curves because the path is pointing a different direction then the face, the ball flight laws become easy to understand.

Thank you very much, I figured there had to be something going on other than just a closed face.

Is there any quick tips to test whether your lie angle is correct or in need of adjustment from a pro?

Take a sharpie and draw a heavy line vertically on the ball set it so that it's on the target line and perpendicular to the ground, and a shot while the marker is still "wet" - from the sole to the top, the line will either point towards the toe (club too upright), straight up (good lie), or towards the heel (too flat) - it's not exact science, but it's easy and pretty reliable. Several equipment companies used this process prior to trackman.

Is it easier to take a divot with blade irons than with cavity back irons? Would blades help prevent hitting the ball fat?

blade irons have narrower soles so it can glide through the turf smoother but it does not help from hitting a ball fat.

although i always hit balls fat when i use game improvement irons.lol

there are many reasons why you might be hitting the ball fat but the type of club(cavity back or muscle back) is not one of them.

If anything the blades would be a little more likely to hit fat because on a slightly fat shot they will dig more easily than a wider backed iron. Taking a divot has nothing to do with equipment and everything to do with technique.

Sole and bounce have a big effect on divots. Generally a wide sole with more bounce will be less likely to take a big divot, and in general could mask some "fat" shot tendencies.

Does it tilt the **** out of anyone else that Johnny Miller thinks that the toe turning over thru impact is what makes a ball hook?

Yes. the ball is on the face for around 1/400,000th of a second - about 10 times faster than you blink - no one is controlling the face like he describes. It's funny too when a player hits one off the toe and the face torques open after impact and he explains that they were opening the face through impact. Amazing.

Exactly. Shouldn't a man in his position be at least mildly acquainted with the most basic principles of the physics of golf, especially in 2012 when this info is readily available?

Even if he is a dinosaur who remains willfully ignorant of the things that trackman has shown us about golf, someone should pull him aside and at least tell him to stop embarrassing himself on national TV every week.

The nonsense he spews about players, Tiger in particular, dipping their heads during the swing is maddening as well. Every good player dips their head! Rory dips a lot and Johnny loves his swing, Johhny Miller himself had a pronounced head tilt/dip in his day.

I've participated in a couple threads on wrx about the subject, including an ongoing one right now. It's maddening how people are willing to give him (and others) such a pass.

This one is really special.

Minor nit but isn't it .0004 seconds or 4 ten thousandths of a second? Obviously still exceedingly short.

Bumping this for self reference purposes