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09-03-2011, 12:00 PM   #61
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Im colder than BR add another 3 R's
Posts: 6,809
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dzh90 You may be misunderstanding the usage of AoA. Negative AoA means hitting down on the ball. Decreasing AoA (hitting MORE down on the ball) increases backspin. The reason push draws have more backspin is the geometry of the swing plane. A push draw is hit with in-to-out, decreased AoA, and an open face. Thanks to our better understanding of golf physics, these are not guesses.
Not to be a stickler, but if when you say "increase your angle of attack" almost everyone(even in the d-plane video he uses this term) it means to hit down more on the ball, thus increasing your negative number. True it is a negative number, but let's say you hit 1* down on the ball and someone has to hit down more on it. You are going to try and hit 3* down on the ball. Nobody is going to say try to decrease your angle of attack and have it mean go from hitting 1* down(-1 in trackmans data output) to 3* down (-3 in trackmans data ouput) just because you are going from -1 to -3 which in mathmatical terms is a decrease in the number.

Also you can hit a push draw with out an increased AoA(what you refer to as "decreased AoA". That is not the huge factor on how the ball flies, thus is not really an explanation for why a push draw would have more spin. The open face at impact however will influence it, by launching the ball higher with more spin.

 09-03-2011, 12:22 PM #62 old hand   Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,529 Re: Ball Flight Laws I know what you are saying but I'd rather not use increase to mean decrease given how AoA is defined. Mixing golf terms that have been around for generations and trackman terms that are new gets confusing. You're right. To hit a push draw with the same AoA, you have to make your swing plane well out to the right and move the ball forward in your stance. In practice for me this is hard to do. When most people hit a push draw they do it by hitting the ball farther back in their swing plane. This type of push draw costs yardage.
 09-03-2011, 02:13 PM #63 journeyman     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston Posts: 252 Re: Ball Flight Laws Can someone break down the swing difference between the pull and the pull fade. ie.. My best drives are normally worked down the left back to center and start at 8oclock and end up at 10 with the occasional 11oclock mixed in.. About once a round I will hit a straight pull which is longer but heading at 8 oclock and staying on that line. I just cannot finger what Iam doing on the pulls,
09-03-2011, 02:28 PM   #64
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Im colder than BR add another 3 R's
Posts: 6,809
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jnsiv Can someone break down the swing difference between the pull and the pull fade. ie.. My best drives are normally worked down the left back to center and start at 8oclock and end up at 10 with the occasional 11oclock mixed in.. About once a round I will hit a straight pull which is longer but heading at 8 oclock and staying on that line. I just cannot finger what Iam doing on the pulls,
If you are hitting straight pulls it will generally mean your clubface and club path are matching up. So your club may be 2* closed at impact and you swing may be 2* out to in. The pull fades some from the same clubface at impact(say 2* closed) but now your club path at impact is >2* out to in. The more out to in, the more it will fade.

 09-03-2011, 03:27 PM #65 Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,726 Re: Ball Flight Laws 'increase your AoA' should not mean more negative unless you are talking about a magnitude (aerodynamics nit itt)! good thread regardless, has made me think a lot more about my shot shape & impact.
09-03-2011, 07:12 PM   #66
journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Houston
Posts: 252
Re: Ball Flight Laws

Quote:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jnsiv Can someone break down the swing difference between the pull and the pull fade. ie.. My best drives are normally worked down the left back to center and start at 8oclock and end up at 10 with the occasional 11oclock mixed in.. About once a round I will hit a straight pull which is longer but heading at 8 oclock and staying on that line. I just cannot finger what Iam doing on the pulls,
NxtWrldChamp: If you are hitting straight pulls it will generally mean your clubface and club path are matching up. So your club may be 2* closed at impact and you swing may be 2* out to in. The pull fades some from the same clubface at impact(say 2* closed) but now your club path at impact is >2* out to in. The more out to in, the more it will fade.
So lets see if I get this; Keeping the clubhead more square to the target will possibly eliminate the hard pull, but might bring on a stonger fade/slice?

 09-03-2011, 07:19 PM #67 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Im colder than BR add another 3 R's Posts: 6,809 Re: Ball Flight Laws Probably at first. The curve of your ball is a product of the difference between the clubface angle and club path. The greater the difference the more side spin will be produced. If you get your clubface square at impact, the ball will now start at the target and peel off to the right depending on how out to in your club path was at impact. Once your able to square the club at impact, start working on your path(so its not so out to in) and you'll be well on your way to hitting it straighter and farther.
 09-03-2011, 08:04 PM #68 journeyman     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston Posts: 252 Re: Ball Flight Laws Thanks, will be slow process but will start with the club face squareish but aiming left of center. Gradually trying to decrease the fade to about 8 yds while centering everything more online from tee to green as it comes around...slowly (I had it for about 2 months last year but never understood why) This info helps though; Kind of a mental blueprint that i have not really had before...
 09-04-2011, 08:05 PM #69 Pooh-Bah   Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4,292 Re: Ball Flight Laws I went to the Range today and practiced after reading all these tips and here are what my clubs are doing. When I pitch Ill point my feet left of the hole, and open my club face up and I hit the ball great, ill admit some shots when left to right and some went right to left. But they all found the green or just short of it. I used my 5 iron and most of the time it went dead straight any where from 170 to 190, somtimes ill hit a slight fade like 10 to 12 or 11 to 12 oclock. On my Driver I saw a pro on Golf channel talk about a slow swing and just think about following through and I hit it with a good fade kind of like the irons most of the time, no slice at all. This I am happy, Then the UK (University of Kentucky) Girls showed up and two of them were hott!! but they were crushing the ball and making me look silly so I got my putter and practiced 6 foot putts for an hour and left.
 09-04-2011, 10:08 PM #70 journeyman     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston Posts: 252 Re: Ball Flight Laws Yeah, college golf chicks are smokin in more ways than one... I'd go putt too...
 09-07-2011, 11:11 PM #71 journeyman     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston Posts: 252 Re: Ball Flight Laws Had better results today with adjusting the fade. No pulls and only sliced the Driver when I did not have room on left (go hybids dummy) and tried to hit down middle.
 09-08-2011, 08:34 AM #72 adept   Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 856 Re: Ball Flight Laws Anyone have good ideas on how to hit a small fade (or draw)? I can hit the ball straight. But my misses are a big push slice, if I forget to clear my hips or get too fast in my back swing; or a massive pull hook if I clear my hips too soon. I mean there is 150-200 yards between these 2 misses the slice is easily 60-100 yards right of target and same with the hook (but left). Luckily I have been working on everythin and I hit it straight 70% of the time. I just want to consistantly hit a small fade or draw in the hopes of eliminating one side of the mistake. When on the range I can not for the life of me consistantly hit a small fade/draw <15 yards. edit: Oh and I can hit those massive hooks/slices if I want to consistantly. But I can really only think of 2 holes of golf that I've ever played where it would come in handy. One is a 90 degree dog leg right around a 10 story condo. The other is an almost 90 degree dl left around a condo. Last edited by bonito; 09-08-2011 at 08:48 AM.
 09-08-2011, 11:22 AM #73 veteran   Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,349 Re: Ball Flight Laws for ^^^^^ I am not a teaching pro so take this with a grain of salt. It sounds like you path is consistent and clubface is all over the map. Ex. A sq to target path with wide open face is a push cut and a sq path with a closed face is a pull hook. Due to having a consistent path I doubt you have as much variance in your hips as you think. I don't know what to tell you to do to work on face angle, that is more a golfdoc/nxtworldchamp question. But I would say get out of your head what you think is wrong and look some place else.
 09-08-2011, 01:20 PM #74 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Im colder than BR add another 3 R's Posts: 6,809 Re: Ball Flight Laws yea it does sound a lot like a club face issue at impact. One fun drill you can do to work on club face is to get 2 alignment poles and set up a field goal type thing on your target line. Go about 6-8 feet in front of your ball, on your target line, and place the poles in the ground about 2 fist widths apart(at first, you can narrow them up once you start squaring the face better). Don't stand the poles straight up, lean them away from you(maybe at a 60-75* angle from the ground) so that if you hit one the ball wont come backwards or break the rod. Now just sit there and try and hit the ball through the poles, if you miss on either side you know that the club was open/closed at impact.
 09-08-2011, 01:50 PM #75 journeyman     Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston Posts: 252 Re: Ball Flight Laws NICE TIP...

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