hi,

villian is 14/11 over 36 hands and has played only 500 mtts as per scope.

ott we hv 58 k and the pot is 45k before he bets turn so i think we have all 3 options open here.
whats best and what are your thoughts on flop line.

ty guys.

not sure why you opened pre, is the players behind more on the nitty side?
there is 3 re jam stack behind us and we are pretty short as well.
On the tough table I think I will always be opening fold A9o here, probably open something like ATs+ KQs+

As played, not sure about your flop plan either, I think when we check, we should always be c/jam here, there gonna be a lot of turn card that we don't like.
I'd just fold this turn as played, don't see much we beat.

open pre is std imo, not sure why u didnt cbet
i dont c the point of c\jam without post flop reads or history
fold turn. nothing much u beat and its not like he's gonna stop OTR, i dont except this kind of villan to get out of line in this spot.

1. Your openraise is def OKish, call the 10bb Shortstack, get blinds or play postflop.

Think folding there is pretty std too, especially in tourneys like the warmup players like to flip in this stages and its ugly to call the re shoves of the 10-20bb stacks.

2. as played i would def always cbet this flop. def no check, or you got the read he is playing his draws etc aggresive, then you could take the line check/raise.

as played check/fold turn.

So overall i think your mistake was to check/call the flop.

regards

Not sure why you are checking on that flop. You initiated the raise pre, continue your story on the flop w/ a cbet for value, if you believe you are ahead. Why did you check? Did you believe you were behind on the flop?

Ok so I think I like my flop check coz these randoms are always gonna take a stab no matter what they have or what the texture of the board is ( I assumed he is a random after seeing his scope )
I did not check flop thinking I was behind I was trying to get value from worse or air as the only A combos that beat me and he can have is a 10 or at times aj against which I am willing to get stacked once I open and get that flop esp with my stack size and on the turn I personally did not think it was a bad card for me as villain would generally check back a Q on the flop .

I am obviously open to discussion and arguement about my thought process .... which is why I posted .

seems like trivial call. we want to know what happens on river (i find this spot more interesting if he does/doesnt barrel lol)

edit: oh what the hell, turn was a 2nd queen lol, guess it isn't a trivial call after all.

I'd call turn and probably call river, trips and flushes are hard to make.

Flop check is standard/good, we don't get value by c-betting at this depth.

yes yes, now bring in the river :-) to this thread

i decide to check shove turn as i wudve had only a 50-55% psb left after turn call .... i did this to protect my hand as there a lot of bad rivers and i thought he would now feel priced in to call with any back door draws tht he may now hv picked up.

PokerStars - $200+$15|2000/4000 Ante 400 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 10.85 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 36)
SB: 38.59 BB (VPIP: 17.46, PFR: 8.06, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 63)
BB: 16.94 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 15.79, Hands: 36)
UTG: 37.52 BB (VPIP: 22.33, PFR: 18.00, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 103)
UTG+1: 20.69 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 8)
Hero (MP): 19.1 BB
MP+1: 39.68 BB (VPIP: 21.18, PFR: 17.07, 3Bet Preflop: 3.03, Hands: 85)
CO: 21.57 BB (VPIP: 13.89, PFR: 11.43, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 36)

8 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has 9 A

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, fold, CO calls 2 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (6.3 BB, 2 players) Q A 3
Hero checks, CO bets 2.43 BB, Hero calls 2.43 BB

Turn: (11.15 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, CO bets 4 BB, Hero raises to 14.57 BB and is all-in, CO calls 10.57 BB

River: (40.29 BB, 2 players) 2

Hero shows 9 A (Two Pair, Aces and Queens) (Pre 53%, Flop 80%, Turn 5%)
CO shows J Q (Three of a Kind, Queens) (Pre 47%, Flop 20%, Turn 95%)
CO wins 40.29 BB

why is check flop std for you?

i think his flat pre is kinda laggy and with his stack there is a ton of hands he is hitting on this flop. Hero flops a solid flop, plus a solid pot with antes etc in the middle.

checking the flop is a option to let him bluff or semi bluffing his hand. but in this hand isnt it more important to save the hand? bet against draws, pairs who can turn into 2 pair etc? i think cbetting there a little bit more then half pot is good, call ship of villain or ship nearly every turn.

like protection more then check.

not a big fan of shoving turn, call > fold > shove, and fold to river

I would CB the flop because we most likely have the best hand, the pot is already big enough, the flop is wet so i don't like to give free cards in this situation.

i'd check flop precisely because many villains make this nonsensical bet with second pair or worse

I think checking is fine on flop and most likely best play. For checking tho I do think it might be best to call turn as well. Then when river comes re-evaluate. Probably having to fold to his bet. He will have a hard time three barreling with that board.

I can see the case for c-betting and with a queen on that board we might get value out of many hands he called pre. But overall checking to him and letting him bet is best as this type of player could be the type to make bets with too wide a range and we probably get more value by check-calling.

At that depth, I wouldn't be in pre, but once you are in pre, I think you have to CB the flop--at the depth you were, there really isn't such a thing as trapping. You just want to get it in while you're good, which you look to be on the flop. You don't have the depth to protect yourself and get away after calling the flop--and if you're not going to get chips in on the flop after you hit top pair, why were you playing pre?

That said, I'm with ssg. Play only the hands you wouldn't fold to a shove pre, AT+, 77+, maybe KQ (although I would probably only play KQ from the HJ with that stack).

I see alot of comments about "protecting your hand" and "cbet for value". Imo a flop cbet is not a cbet for value since you will almost never be able to get it to showdown and win. You could as well be playing air because its all about betting to to get worse to fold (on flop or on a later streets). If you are calling a raise I like the check-raise more. so in this thinking process there are 4 possibilities on the flop:

1. You cbet and fold to a raise. Your handvalue doesnt matter much here, you either barrel turn or give up.
2. You check call for value and reevaluate turn
3. You check-raise (think this is giving too much value to better hands)
4. You check-fold because you believe there are too much better hands in his range. (seems way too tight)

I would go for option 1 or 2. Please comment if my thinking is flawed here, because I generally play these kind of hands passively and try to get to showdown while getting some value from worse hands that would give up or raise a cbet.

Ya I'm pretty sure we should be throwing away #4. What was the point to play preflop to check fold, lol. 1 or 2 makes sense Definitely thinking about the hand if action goes to the turn as stack sizes have to be careful for you.

i don't see many hands that pick up a diamond draw and would bet twice that are worse than your hand

against the range i think makes sense- a few combos of Ax with and w/out a diamond, some gutshots w/out diamonds, a few qx combos, a few flushes, and a few pairs that have a diamond (he might be more likely to chk back pairs that have a diamond ott, idk) A9o has ~33%. i don't see how turn could be c/jam.

the queen seems to be much better for a flop c/c range than a cbetting range, so if you don't think he's bluffing much on that card, i could see the turn being a fold. the range i'm crunching gives a9o ~18% against a range that rarely bluffs, and there is another street where our plan is to c/pray more than c/prey.

I agree that the open is totally fine, but no you cannot call off the 10 BB stack unless he's re-jamming insanely wide. He will always be assuming that he's got no fold equity, so he's purely jamming for value. I gave him a range of 77+,ATo+ cause we're opening from UTG+3 into shortish stacks, so I assume he'll give us some credit. Against that range we do 29% and we need 36,5% to make the stackoff. Sure it sucks to fold to a 10 BB stack, but if you're not willing to, you better not open in the first place. Cause calling off here is a mistake that a lot of regulars make, people are just not going to risk their tournament life with a range wide enough to make our call profitable.

I like the flop check for the reasons already stated. So based on the little information given in OP we can assume he's pretty tight, but if he flats a hand like QJs here I assume he flats all these too KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s and I assume he'll be stabbing flop with this entire range. I gave him this kind of a range cause I think he's going to slowdown with his Ax hands very often OTT and check it back, I also assume he will be happily checking flop and turn with small pairs. Against the range I gave him we do 55% OTT, so the turn decision comes down to wether you think he's going to barrel that card or not. But I still don't think we can fold the turn with the price we're given. Call turn, revaluate river.