I meant to post this hand, but forgot and was reminded by a friend, so I will do my best to remember the exact counts etc. The important stuff is correct.

Day 4:

Table consists of young reg in 1 seat, Allen Cunningham in 3 seat and Jeff Madsen in 8 seat, I am in the 9 seat. Rest of table are middle aged un-knowns (at this time).

Level 16: 2,500-5,000, 500 ante

Jeff: 360k (72bb)
Hero: 650k (130bb)
1 seat: 830k (166bb)

Jeff is UTG and opens to 12.5k

Hero is UTG+1 and 3b to 32.5k with KK

1 seat is UTG+2 and 4b to 64k

Folds to Jeff and he 5bs to 105k


This is sorta early in the day but I have the following reads:
1 seat is competent and has been playing very patiently thus far. I have seen him raise and take 1 pot pre and raise and take down one pot with a flop c-bet. He hasn't put in a 3b or shown any creativity.

Jeff and I are shooting the ****, he's a nice guy and we had a couple things in common. We also had a $100 prop bet on the level we hit the $$ in. He's had a rep as a douche, far from the truth IMO. The only reason he showed this hand was to be nice to me. I consider him a "live-pro" at this point. Know nothing about him, but his tendencies gave me that impression right off the bat.

My Image:
I didn't consider my image enough when I made this decision and I think that was a HUGE mistake. I'd played AA weird to rip big pot off of Cunningham just an orbit or so prior to this spot and I have kinda made life a little difficult on Jeff thus far. I've flatted him alot and I've 3b him 2x so far and won both post flop. I'd decided to pick on him a bit, and was just playing accordingly to some of his tenancies, flatting 3bs too wide etc.

• Is flatting an option? Why? Obv that gives 1 seat proper odds to call with his entire range and play nearly perfect post. I can find myself in some very awkward spots on wet boards etc.
  
  
• When I 6b does Madsen ever get it in worse? Seems like an easy fold for him with QQ< and AK by the time I 6 bet in this given spot.
  
  
• Does 6 betting accomplish anything but getting it in vs AA and taking down what's in at this point (200k)?
  
  
• It almost seems like I can't get it in good here given the action without Jeff just spewing. I can 6b/fold vs 1-seat should he 7-bet pile, but I'm obv calling vs. Jeff. If Jeff 7 bet-piles what range are you giving him? I have blockers to AK. Is QQ eliminated?
  
  
• My thought process at the time was that I have 32k invested, this dude's got AA and if I double up Jeff Madsen I will have to kill myself. So I folded...

After the hand, Jeff says he's supposed to have AA there. Ikd wtf that's supposed to mean? If he knew he was turning his hand in to a bluff or what? Maybe he was "just tryna see where he was at" or some live-donk garbage.





-Sorry, had to do this in like 3 minutes, so may not have articulated this as best I could. Thanks very much for your time in reading.

-Adam

Flat pre first time around from UTG+1. As played fold i think

Sent from my XT907 using 2+2 Forums

He is correct. He is supposed to have AA there. So, he is either playing the "i can 5b any two because it always looks like AA" given his read of you potentially knocking him out of a couple pots earlier, in concert with "I(Jeff) know the UTG+2 guy also knows this and is 4b light as a resteal" or he has AA.

Is he ever folding after putting in 29 percent of his stack? Is he ever 5 betting to take the play from you? is he ever 5 bet calling with QQ< or AK(which you have significantly blocked)? Is he ever 5b folding 29 percent with QQ< or AK? Doubtful... which is to say I would probably fold the KK. Which is not an easy thing to do at all, so kudos to you.

Maintaining your present stack is worth way more than losing more than half or all of it if Mr plus 2 young reg is the one with the nuts. Folding KK sucks. Getting it in with 132 BB against AA is worse.

Fold and steal it back after the requisite time to image repair. Nice hand.

yeah kinda easy fold and flat first itme

+1

snapfold and table talk like your garbage bluff failed then back to work + get paid next time you have the goodiebags.

I think I fold now.

Curious about the advice to flat the first time. Do you think we should have null 3-betting range in this spot? I don't think that's bad necessarily but just want to see if that's what you're suggesting.

Yeh, why can't we 3-bet AA/KK and some suited broadway or something as bluffs? I would be interested in an explanation. Or do most people not 3-bet much here, which makes us sort of face up with the 3-bet with KK, even if our own range is balanced here? Or do you not want to have such a small value 3-bet range, so then don't 3-bet at all?

Prefer flat first time around...hard to have a balanced 3 betting range when UTG opens and you are +1...3 betting anything SC would be spewey.

Also, think fold is correct and he can't do this with ATC. He has to have at least Ax to make that move...you and SB are showing alot of strength and uncapped. With Ax his chances of running into AA are extremely slim when +1 3bets and SB 4 bets...

Any reads on seat 1? Is he someone that can be 4 betting light in this spot?

Flat the first time is standard but 3-betting is fine given the described dynamic.

I think Jeff is probably 4b AK some % of the time to leverage both of you here, but if UTG+2 is 4b QQ+/AK he still has aces 28% of the time. Gonna be really hard for Jeff to be AK heavy enough to put more chips in here.

its described that jeff is loosey goosey and flats too many 3bets and weve been 3betting him a bunch and picking on him, anything but 3betting here especially when the rest of the table is old and i assume tight seems pretty bad. **** balance ffs they are farmers.

I guess fold now, but not 3bing Jeff Madsen here would be insanity.

I more like a flat because of how nutted our range is when we 3 bet and Jeff will make our life difficult postflop as our range is very defined. Not to mention flats up cool spots where someone squeezes and we are insanely underrepped.

lol why is our range nutted?

Theres no way picking on a guy and then folding Kings pre can be optimal. I would Jam, but 5ing is probably best.

this hand was on tv right?

I remember thinking this was close when Adam told me about the hand after the days play. Don't have much to add other than can't wait to see it on TV and see what Madsen had

Lon and Norman are going to be super results oriented and either call Adam a fish or genius depending whether he was right or wrong

no ones going to make your life difficult when you hold kings and have a 4:1 to spr otf

uhm...even if hes loose, 3betting defines our range so well that he can even flat OOP and still make our life hard postflop. also 3betting in this spot with some bluffs is pretty spewey when we are UTG +1 and everyone knows OR will flat very wide allowing others to come along or fold hands that we dominate and want to go postflop against.

can't say 3betting is very bad, because it isn't...but if we want to allow ourselves to play 67s or even 45s 46s type hands here, KK is very good to balance and protect our flatting range. also the huge advantage we get for being underrepped...instead when we 3bet, we are between the late middle and top of our range, however our range is very narrow QQ+AK+...most people dont 3bet JJ here, so I can't be a big fan of 3betting KK either

you think 6 avg ME players are cold flatting EP 3bets because they know it will go three ways to a flop?

how is anyone going to make our life tough playing KK in position with a 4:1 SPR?

Yeah flatting in general may be better, but vs this opponent and with this dynamic, it is a clear 3b.

Now, I am folding, and I have never folded KK preflop in a non-satellite. When a non-creative, passive player cold 4b from UTG2, after UTG1 just 3bet UTG, alarm bells go off. When a competent experienced player sees this and still 5bets from UTG, well, one of them has aces an awful damn lot. If Madsen had less than KK, that seems like insane spew given the action.

Maybe you read wrong..I said if we 3 bet we limit other players from making a play or coming along. And when we flat we allow lots of room for people to make plays and be forced to 3bet hands that get put in awkward spots to flat and play 3 ways postflop

Hard to agree flatting is def better than 3betting esp when opponent is lag and we are lag.
Defined range? I think even poker God probably can't precisely define what NSB 3bets in such spots.

However yeah seems a fold as player mostly bc 4bettor described as tag and all this movement is utg. Your math is wrong tho Ben. If he 5b/f AK 4 bettor would have AA just 14% of times, so it's kinda interesting esp considering how hard it is for hero yo proceed with anything which isn't rockets.

How would you proceed with AA?