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Old 06-13-2012, 01:56 PM   #1
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Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

Hero is chip leader with 8 left (900k at 4000/8000/500). Strong, solid image, haven't been overly splashy or aggro in the eyes of this villain. He is an aggro Euro (400k) who was actively 3 betting/4 betting at previous tables but been quiet since we got to FT. First prize is $75k, 2nd is $56, currently we are at $10k payout level.

I raise UTG to 17k with A7cc, one fish in CO calls, villain in BB calls. Flop is AT5cc. I bet 19k, fold, and villain makes it 45k. Hero?

I am almost positive he barrels turn, shoves river on like every possible run-out. I highly doubt he has a c/r/f range here also. What is hero's plan here. If I 3bet get-it-in, what am I really hoping to see outside of KQcc/QJcc?
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:18 PM   #2
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

step 1 - don't cbet the flop, C/R>C/C>B/C>B/F

As played- You are probably right about him not c/r/folding, which is why i advocate *Not* getting it all in here. I'm flatting the 45k, and calling ~100k on the turn, folding the river unimproved.
Villain is repping AT, A5, 55 here (I'm assuming he 3b TT and AA pre), none of which are folding.

Hand 0: 60.081% 58.18% 01.90% 8640 282.00 { TcTs, 55, ATs, A5s, ATo, A5o }
Hand 1: 39.919% 38.02% 01.90% 5646 282.00 { Ac7c }

I personally don't like getting it all in as 40% with 0 fold equity, but folding for better than 2-1 on the flop is not happening.
FYI 7h on the turn puts us 52% against this range going into the river
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:50 PM   #3
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

so what do we do when we call flop c/r, and that 7h hits ott. CRAI ott when he bets 100k? Tough spot otf, as we're never folding here. If villain is aggro, he could he take the same line same line with KQcc? I'd call and re-evaluate ott.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:29 PM   #4
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

Beaver- Yup, I'm getting in on a 7 turn 100%.
I obv kept bluffs and draws out of his range to be pessimistic, but it's a really simple stove questions.


Board: Ah Tc 5c
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.187% 40.92% 00.27% 6482 42.00 { 55, ATs, KcQc, KcJc, QcJc, 98s, ATo }
Hand 1: 58.813% 58.55% 00.27% 9274 42.00 { Ac7c }

You'll notice I through in all combos of 98s to accommodate for no pair no draw bluffs.
You could add in 4c3c if you wanted too.
IMO if you can make his range wide enough to have 45%+ against his range you can get it in, but if he has a tight range you shouldn't get it in with 40% equity and very little dead money.

Flat call, and get it in on any club or 7 turn or river. SPR is SPR...


Also I misread OP for some reason. I am almost always checking back this flop in position.
We are either SUPER far ahead or behind with a crap ton of outs here. checking back allows us to keep an aggro in the pot who wants to barrel us off of our weak ace or try to rep the draw that we have by barreling it on turns and rivers.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:51 PM   #5
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

You have a huge stack thus should be avoiding huge pots because it cuts down on your edge... imo check call flop. We're behind most of his value range, so, technically, raising is just blowing up the pot with the worst hand often.

Sometimes we have the best hand, but that's why we check call, because his value range is so much smaller here than our cbetting range. I don't personally advocate trying to play a pot that potentially puts any portion over like 15% of your stack at risk if you can avoid it, especially as a big chip leader this deep.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:27 PM   #6
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerZombie View Post
Beaver- Yup, I'm getting in on a 7 turn 100%.
I obv kept bluffs and draws out of his range to be pessimistic, but it's a really simple stove questions.


Board: Ah Tc 5c
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.187% 40.92% 00.27% 6482 42.00 { 55, ATs, KcQc, KcJc, QcJc, 98s, ATo }
Hand 1: 58.813% 58.55% 00.27% 9274 42.00 { Ac7c }

You'll notice I through in all combos of 98s to accommodate for no pair no draw bluffs.
You could add in 4c3c if you wanted too.
IMO if you can make his range wide enough to have 45%+ against his range you can get it in, but if he has a tight range you shouldn't get it in with 40% equity and very little dead money.

Flat call, and get it in on any club or 7 turn or river. SPR is SPR...


Also I misread OP for some reason. I am almost always checking back this flop in position.
We are either SUPER far ahead or behind with a crap ton of outs here. checking back allows us to keep an aggro in the pot who wants to barrel us off of our weak ace or try to rep the draw that we have by barreling it on turns and rivers.
I like it, Zombie. Best line imo. Are we c/c 2nd barrell on turn and c/f to 3rd barrel(if it looks value-ish) almost always here if we brick the fd and 7? Also, are we ever c/c river he triple-barrell shove otr?
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:53 PM   #7
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerZombie View Post
C/R>C/C>B/C>B/F
wat



super easy call
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:01 AM   #8
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post
wat
super easy call
Very correct, for some reason I misread OP and thought we were OOP.
I like checking back the flop and calling down on most runouts vs an aggro.

We disguise our top pair
We disguise our draw
We play a decent sized pot in position against someone who is inclined to spew.
It's hard to get a more perfect situation.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:14 AM   #9
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

pretty results oriented to say check flop. everything is good now call flop check raise. hes not repping much so id be calling on most runouts that dont include offsuit K,Q, or J's.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:13 PM   #10
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

yeah i am betting the flop 75% and checking it 25%, basing the breakdown on opponent tendencies, my current image, and any relevant history.

as played, agree with gostatego, calling here, and calling many runouts, depending on sizing or timing reads, etc.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:19 PM   #11
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

I wonder if anyone says check flop back if you only post up until villain checks. Knowing we got check raised has to influence post mortem decision making in this hand imo.

Flat the flop c/r though. Probably calling most turns with reasonable sizing and then deciding on the river if we dont improve.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:40 PM   #12
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

i think checking flop is very good against opponents who don't understand the concept that checking means we almost certainly have showdown value and so they will assume they can just bet the turn and blow us out of the pot.

it keeps both of our ranges wide and there are no cards that we hate on the turn. also when a club comes, they will frequently discount our ability to have a flush since they will assume we would have c-bet the flush draw.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:49 PM   #13
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I'd check flop sometimes, but probably less than usual since I am chip leader and am going to be mashing A hi flops.
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:32 PM   #14
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Re: Venetian Deep Stack FT--flop of my dreams or my nightmares?

yeah and its 3 ways, not checking flop 3 ways when we almost always have the best hand
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:25 PM   #15
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Vs some opponents checking removes most Ax and fd combos from your perceived range, so vs them this is a pretty cool hand to check with. I'd usually bet though.
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