I don't
It depends....

I still don't get it. How is this clicking button? How would anyone play the turn and river differently. I don't like c/f OTT because we are often ahead. OTR, I would probably bet at least pot.

As far as preflop, there are two reasons to flat: you are OOP and the 4x. It isn't like we are going to gii preflop. I can't see how the flat can be a big mistake.

It's clicking buttons because nothing about what we are doing (both with our specific hand, and without knowing what we have) is making any sense. I agree with what lolposting said about fish tagging.

For clarity's sake, the part I hate the least is preflop. But this is just a line you shouldn't be taking with anything and thus this whole discussion is pretty moot. What interests me the most about this thread is whose 2nd account lolposting is

Betgo you would get mopped up at 50nlhe cash imo

I understand you don't like it, but I am not clear how you would play differently on the turn and river. Specifically, OTR with the straight on the board would you check because betting big doesn't make sense and is clicking buttons?

It really isn't necessary to insult me or OP. Neither of you have given any indication of how you would play this differently postflop.

I am sure Betgo as many others are here because 1)the love for poker.2)we want to learn more.
It's important that we do respect other posters whatever your opinion on the poster is.I think this would result in a better community and more quality posts.Nobody plays perfect poker and we al make mistakes and try to learn from them.
Would this environment been a little more friendly i am sure more people would post.

lolposting2016 you make some interesting posts but the tone off your posts are sometimes harsh.It would be nice would you explain your reasoning a little more detailed.I personaly don't mind if somebody say "fish you played it damn wrong" would he point out my mistakes step by step.
Somebody asked how you would play it ott and otr....your answer...i would never go to the river with it.
You can do better then that lol2016.

I would not play the hand this way and even would think to fold otf(i know this gone have critics).But ones hero clicked some buttons ott i think otr he need to continue.
The only poster that made a valid point why not to flat pre is Chuck Bass.
lol2016 can you give your reason other then play a premium for maxEV?
The people that would flat said...4xopen.OOP and early stages.

Thanks in advance.

My analysis of the hand is we flat preflop, which we have some reason to do because we are OOP, the 4x, 3-betting gives accurate information about our hand, and it is a difficult situation if we get 4-bet. The flop seems standard. We can't fold the flop, as we are usually ahead and have a straight draw and premium overcards.

C/f OTT would be bad, as we are still usually ahead. I like the lead. No one has explained how they would play it. The turn does set up the river, as OP pointed out. However, we have bet the river with a straight on the board. I would have made it about 1.2x pot bluffing here. For value, I would probably also make it .8-1.5x pot, depending on the straight or flush I had.

OP's rationale for the turn, that he is never ahead and needs to bluff is fishy. However, I would be interested in specific discussion of each of the 4 decisions in the hand. I really don't know what people would do differently other than 3-bet preflop because you have AK. If you would check the river, what would you do if villain bet 1.5x pot?

I don't understand why people are allowed to insult posters and not even analyze the hand. OP may be a fish, but at least discuss the specifics. I provided my analysis of the hand street by street. If I am bad, then provide a refutation of it street by street. You should be able to show how terrible and fishy my rational is at every point.

Betgo, I haven't insulted you or said anything of the like at any point in this thread, not sure where you got that idea.

You spend a lot of time analyzing what people would/should do OTT / OTR when the problem is that we shouldn't arrive there this way, we shouldn't have a single hand that plays this way. So essentially we are analyzing a situation that shouldn't exist.

I will quote limon's HSNL thread to illustrate my thoughts about turn/river play in this hand:

The way I'd play this hand:

PRE: 3bet
-Makes life easier
-Helps us determine villain's range
-If he has KK/AA he will probably inform us and we can fold to a 4bet. I know you probably want to say "but aren't we turning our hand into a bluff" but we are just maximizing value (a lot of it comes from when he flats and folds flop with a similar hand vs him having the initiative and us doing the same). Vs a 4xer I don't think it's a legit concern to expect him to 4bet us off our hand with anything worse. I think if he has JJ he will always flat, the only slightly disastrous scenario imo is if he has QQ and 4bets big and we fold our equity. I don't think that's going to happen very often either and that's the only bad thing that can happen pretty much. It's just the highest EV line to 3bet AND it will also make playing the hand so much easier for us. I'd be much happier to call OTB or from BB.

Flop: Well if I flatted SB here, if I had a flatting range I guess I'd have something like AKs AQs 88-JJ? So with these hands I would check call overpairs (fold if he pots it), fold AQs AKs nonfd/backdoor hands. So I think this combo is still probably a fold? Although closeish. Anyway...

Turn: So we get to the turn with: 88-JJ that you obv don't want to lead. So do we want to construct a leading range that is our two combos of nut flushes and bluff with our four combos of failed backdoor flush draws? I don't think so. And if we get to the turn with all these non bdfd combos of AKs AQs our leading range is extremely bluffheavy. I don't think we should have a leading range if we somehow get to this turn (which we shouldn't in the first place). We have terrible blockers with all our bluffs, basically the hands we would blufflead block the exact hands we are trying to get to fold (see OP's hand).

River: Well if you get there this way, and your car is already in the 7-11, then I say **** it, I'd probably try to **** the prison guard too to get out of jail and bomb the river. In the context of the hand it's like a cherry on top of the cake, it's a bad play but hey, might as well try now that we have buttonclicked ourselves here. But the real lesson isn't in turn/river play DUCY.

The thing is, OP is basically trying to make villain fold an overpair on scary board because V has very few combos that are flush/straight. That is true. But what's even more true is that we have played our hand in an extremely confusing way from villain's perspective, whatever we have is just random btnclicking, and as villain I wouldn't fold a single hand to this line that you're trying to get me to fold. It just reeks of a random bluff attempt and isn't sensible. If I were villain I'd snap call you off here with anything that can beat AQ, expect to be good like 80% of the time, and if I was somehow wrong I'd chuckle and make an angry tweet about live fish owning me.

I will end this post by saying that I spent 3-4 years trying to do the same thing as OP here in live tournaments. I'd attack every capped range, try to push people off overpairs on every scary board where they "can't have it". I can tell from experience that it's a pretty expensive strategy and it's much better to just play good and logical poker.


In Jesse Pinkman voice:

OTR, there is a straight on the board. I agree it would probably bad to bluff on a different run out, as based on preflop and the turn, it is likely villain has an overpair. Do you see that if villain calls it is usually a chop? If we check the river, then villain could make a huge bet and put us in a difficult situation. He could still bluff raise our river bluff. On the whole, betting fairly large seems best.

Would you really check the river? Why does it matter to either player if villain has an overpair or some other hand at this point? If you check the river, are you folding, calling, or check raising? It depends on sizing and and reads, but we should have a plan. Would you really c/f the river? Is that better than as played? The river seems like an interesting street to me, and I don't know why you would dismiss it because you don't like the other streets.

I don't think you can fold AK to a cbet on a 3 wheel card flop.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

150,480 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 234

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
asks	57.67%	76,851	19,859
15%	42.33%	53,770	19,859

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

65,340 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 234

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
asks	47.51%	24,531	13,025
7%	52.49%	27,784	13,025

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

5,940 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 234

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
asks	36.11%	2,064	162
jj	63.89%	3,714	162

Not sure where I insulted OP either. If OP feels like I did, feel free to let me know and I'll apologize.
YES IT DOES.

It's a snowball effect. That's like the crux of poker, you make one slight mistake in hand selection that leads you to lose 100BB or whatever. Of course anything that happens preflop or flop in a single raised pot is a "slight mistake" since we are only putting a few big blinds into a small pot. It's pretty hard for us to make a "big mistake" since even if we put 4BB in with 25% equity we'd still only be losing 3BB. So by that logic flatting a 4x open with 72o here isn't a "big mistake". But it's those small mistakes that set up the big mistakes.

The flop simulations etc kinda prove the point about 3betting. If we 3bet, now we have the initiative and it's villain running these sims and not us. Should he call with AcKc, AdKd here if he flatted our 3bet? It makes all the difference to have him in that spot.

I could certainly be convinced that when we get to the flop, we need to call all our AK. Whether we call/fold AK here on the flop definitely will be an actual slight mistake either way. But if there's a chance we might end up doing what we did in this hand, it's probably a wise choice to fold even AK with bdfd.

I don't really have anything else to say about the hand. I'd be happy to hear thoughts from other people. Not my place to dismiss other people's opinions, but I feel pretty strongly about this one.

GL and apologies for these apparent insults (I'm still unsure what they were), but lolposting please don't change, I agree with ~every post I have seen you make in all these threads.

On this flop, it would have been better if we had initiative. However, there are situations where you would not be happy 3b/folding AKs. Then you might not get much action when you hit. If you got a lot of action when you hit, you could be in a difficult situation. Villain could put you on AK and when he can beat that and try to extract a lot. Then you could be in a difficult situation OOP on mid card flops, which you appear to miss, but may be ahead on. If we flat and hit, we may not make that much against JJ, but villain will likely barrel with air, and value bet worse top pair. So I don't see that about cascading errors from OP's decision to flat.

I don't understand the relevance of whether you should have 3-bet preflop or other earlier decisions to what to do OTR with a straight and 3-flush on the board. Do you mean the hand should have been over before the river? If you had AK and he had JJ or TT, you would still be in a similar situation OTR unless you folded.

I don't get the connection. This must be some high level concept about how river play is unimportant if you misplayed preflop. Are there any videos I can watch that will help me understand it?

First off I think you definitely go ahead and repop it preflop; however, that would be somewhat read dependent.

I really like the idea of turning the AK into a bluff but I think you should have check raised the turn. If he checks behind your AK may be good and you could always peel a pair. Reevaluate after river if he calls the check raise and fold to a reshove. Obviously, with this river I would go ahead and value bet bluff the river.

I am not a fish lol.
your analysis made sense, I was just saying that i was repping the straight or better to get villain to fold an overpair. I was pretty sure I was not good OTT...

Nope, all good. i was just saying LOLPOSTING had a fairly aggressive tone in his posts. you were factual and not insulting/aggressive.

I get your point that bluffing capable villains off chops didnt work out for you in the past, but in my case it was a rec player, and he didnt have that deep of a thought process. if he calls, he wouldnt have known why he called....
that was the main rationale of my line, but you would need to have been @ the table to know that.

but I disagree that i only should have 2 combos of flushes available in my range. flatting pre allows me to have ALL the flushed in my range (any Ahxhx, KhTh+, Qh9h+, Jh9h+,Th9h,9h8h, 8h7h). that is 24 combos.

but hey, the good thing about poker is that everyone can play the cards how they want to. Some do it better some do it worse. I am not saying what you described is 'wrong' or how I played the hand is 'right', I just wanted to get some feedback from different positions; and that I got plenty by now

That is possible. I don't play online NLHE cash and it isn't my best game. Not sure exactly what level I could beat. Can definitely beat 25NL, but not 200NL. May give it a try and see.

I don't know what the current theory on 3-betting in online cash games is, and I assume that is what you mean that it would be considered a big mistake not to 3b AKs from the blinds in cash.

Interesting point about 3-betting the 4x though. It works if you assume you are dealing with a donk who will 4-bet KK/AA and call with anything he 4x with. Then presumably he will call down if you pair his ace of king and to some extent with a mid pp when an A or K hits.

I think OP was just looking at the strength of villains range, and not considering how villain might botch the hand by calling the 3b too light and postflop.

Not sure of the need to be so rude to OP and to me. You remind me of a notorious criminal who launched a defamation campaign on a known malware site.

I guess everything has been said in this respect. if lolposting doesn't get it, GG and see you at the river.

Last comment regarding the hand:

Actually I was trying stuff out there, as I usually do not make this kind of moves. I am glad though that I got approval and disapproval, because that shows that this spot actually was kind of a grey zone, and I wanted to get out of my comfort zone (and force Villain to do so to).

What was rude about what I said? I'm giving op quality feedback for free.
Just cuz betgo came in and does what he does in hsmtt threads and gets offended when people tell him how far off base he is

I think lolposting is being a little hard on OP. I dont think its the optimal way to play the hand or anything but don't think its the worse line and OP can have some suited broadway combos (flushes!) that are reasonable to play like this

Lol makes a great point about 3-betting the 4x preflop. He sometimes posts really key strategy points like that.

However, I am not sure why it is necessary when giving free good advice to insult the person you are giving it to.

That may explain partly why lol does not like coaches, as coaches generally give advice in a tactful and polite style to their paying clients. They usually explain their reasoning, rather than making a brilliant point, saying DUCY, and being as offensive as possible.

Its funny that u think I'm stealthmunk
Also again. Not my fault you took offense to me pointing out glaringly bad poker
This is a 3k ffs

I'm not offended. Be yourself, whoever you are. I said I agreed with Chuck that you posted some amazing strategy ITT.

Idk mb with like random ahx combos it wouldnt be the worst. pretty bad to just make random 0 equity bluffs tho in weird looking spots and you do have some sd value imo. Its not like he just barrels 100% of turns I would actually expect him to check back frequently.

What others have said.