She was commenting on this post of mine. Sketchy is a standard reg who isn't ******ed but his thought process is very elementary. He can make money off of fish who will stack off 150 BBs deep with top pair against his set but he is lighting money on fire if he wants to play pots like this against Apestyles OOP. On the other hand, Mement absolutely hit the nail on the head by pointing out every factor why folding is optimal preflop.

I don't know anything about Vanessa (I don't follow live poker) but I have been told she is very good. I am assuming she thought all the points that Mement enumerated but she took it for granted that all HS regs take all of those factors into consideration when making a decision. They don't. Sometimes they are just high and thinking about Doritos.

all of this. C/r flop > donk tho

i don't see how her line about cash games applied in this spot b/c you're ~45bb deep this hand and would be 100bb deep in a cash game

that just makes it more applicable

She obviously meant that the fold pre is so clear that knowing and understanding it doesnt mean you are 'on another level'

[QUOTE=THEOSU;20641344]The omission of a comma between the penultimate and ultimate word of your post makes it much more awesome.
QUOTE]

hehe, I read it like he wrote it

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but I think, in general villain opens wider with a deeper stack and obviously stacks off less frequently with worse (never?) so I fail to see how it's *more* applicable. I agree that duck's point is still valid (it didn't even apply to the hand, it applied to the concept).

<3 euro sites where you can profitably set mine against regs and fish, a like!

I think the point was that if people are folding 22 in this spot 100bbs deep then anything <100bbs deep has worse implied odds and therefore is even less profitable of a flat.

Hmm, maybe it's me that's missing the point but I thought the whole thing was implied odds are irrelevent cuz ape is good, and has a wide range, so he's rarely stacking off with worse. When he is stacking off, it represents too small a portion of his range to account for the times he folds. Also, he has a lot of hands in his range that make flushes and straights and we lose with our sets sometimes, like mement said.

well that obv makes sense...i didn't know ppl were folding this 100bb deep though

I've satisfactorily understood the concept of folding deuces, but nobody has even attempted to address this question, which I think is an important one. Clearly 77 is massively different from 22, but is it massively different enough for people to advocate calling? Or would you rather three bet the 77?

If ape is opening 85s here three betting pre can't really be all that bad.

lol. preflop is certainly 3b >>> fold >>>>>>>>>> uuhhhsketchyIsaul

that is as a random in the mill vs ape

So would you say the same thing about 78s? What about 78o? What about 59o?

The point is we can't rank 3-betting in a vacuum without knowing the villain's image, Ape's image, history, and OP's ability to play postflop (because Ape could flat a 3-bet).

he said in op his image was tight/passive. pretty sure ape isn't gonna expect a random nit to be 3betting light ever pre ante from the sb. ape probably doesn't even have a 4bet range here besides i guess ak when he'll just say **** it and shove, so you'll certainly stack all his monsters when you flop a set.. even with like 88-tt or mayb even jacks, he'll finish playing sum absurd 6bet pot in the 150r vs mralan, while scratching his head over what to do here and end up calling the 3b and just saying whatever and folding a ton of flops and that's with the very top of his range since he's opening 85s. i guess 87s would be good too, not to say 87o or 95o or atc for that matter aren't profitable to 3bet here it's just you can't do this all the time or he's obviously gonna react differently to the 3bet and adjust his ranges so you might as well do it, in this instance, with a hand that can outflop qq-aa when he does have ben kangs or aces

Got it. Thanks!

Didn't see this thread until now, but I agree with everyone who says:

fold preflop
c/r flop
fold to river raise

Also, for people who want to 3b 22 here for their given reasons: Would you in turn advocate 3betting atc in this exact spot? If no, why?*


As for all the other stuff, entertaining read.

*If Jamie or someone else could expand on this, I'd like it.

i mean you are right that we can check raise/do weird **** post that will get a lot of folds. The problem with this is that 22 is an awful hand to do it with. Obviously in a vacuum it will be profitable on some boards, but seeing as we do not have a non existent flatting range in this spot, its important we balance our frequencies.

The range of hands we should be playing back at him with in this exact spot does not include deuces almost ever. Beyond A34 A45 and 345, 22 is gonna have less equity versus his value range postflop, than anything.

We should be c/r and floating good boards w over/ gutters/back door flush draws and overs etc.

I am not advocating 3-betting, but I don't see how 3-betting 22 here is like 3-betting ATC. You are getting flat called fairly often. 22 isn't the greatest to play, but it is better than 42o. You want a hand that has some value to 3-bet. This 3-betting with absolute junk seems like FPS to me.

Thinking about the hand more, I think a fold is best. First of all, no matter how loose apestyles is raising, why do you want to play a pot with him early in the SM? Think it is best to fold any marginal hand to his raise and not bluff 3-bet him. There are so many easier players to take on.

u scurrd

I agree that with pocket deuces is not a good hand to do it, probably 77,88, 66 are much better to ballance (yeah I don't care to transform my hand into a bluff in a T 5 3)than 22. Actually I mentioned these in my post.

You can take off some hands of your bluff range and substitute for these pocket deuces so you can play for set value. I don't think these is the best way to win money but I don't think it's wrong.

There is one more problem of not calling with pocket deuces or anything like 22,33,44,55. If a regular notice these you will start represent much less when you check raise low boards.

My intention in my post was to give some exemples that we can win the pot in some spots that we don't get a deuce.

Anyway , I still prefer folding pre.

So figure out who is noticing, and widen your value c/r range on low boards...

If you increase your check raise range without having these PP's in your range you won't represent enough value hands so you will get re-blufed more often.

lol donkaments

um, yeah, when i said "value c/r range," that was meant to imply you don't fold those hands when you get reraised...

lol at having to "follow live poker" to know vanessa.

listen, pgh, you are my friend. but you don't know who vanessa is because you are a noob mtt-donk and she is an OG cash/mtt ballstar who now studies the law and wins live mtts.

also, smok quickly becoming one of my fav posters in hsmtt.