It is my first big buy-in live. I am in BB with QQ and about 16 k (20 k starting stacks.) Villain is on button with about 30 k and is a face I recognize from TV poker. He has been talking to bracelet winner across table about being at a final table together at WSOP this year. He is not long at table, and so far his only action has been to raise me off my blind both times since he sat down.

Blinds are 150/300, ante 25. Fold fold Limp, fold limp, and then folds to the button, who makes it 1200 to go. SB folds and I re-raise to 3200. Limpers fold, and after a little tanking the villain re-pops me to 10500.

Pot is about 14.5 k. Call leaves me with about 5 k back. Fold - 13 k. Shove is either 28 k if he folds, 43 k if he calls and I win, busto if he calls and I lose.

WTF should I have done?

The first thing you should have done was decided what to do if you got raised/shoved on before you raised.

I dont see how you can fold here. If AK is in his range (And at these stacks it certainly is) then youve got tons of equity. 5k behind means youre getting it in on most flops, so put it in now.

Should be really happy about getting this in. Seems like an easy one? 10s is ugly, but guess we play it differently, basically
Any really good hands that ou get yourself into this spot with you should proceed and wager the maximum. Ie your 3b for value range.

Jam

Sorry he had AA/KK or drew out on you.

Its easy to say this, but how often do you 3 bet with stacks this deep and consider what you will do if 4-bet (before you it actually happens.

OP, I think it depends on bit on the table dynamics. What do you look like OP? (Are you old or young?) I'd probably ship it with QQ, but I think its kinda close. I would probably chuck JJ in this spot.

Uh, what? How is this close at all? I snap get it in here with QQ.

Not sure if serious...

don't 3bet to 20% of your stack OOP with QQ vs aggro opponent and then fold because then you're turning your premium pair into a bluff for 20% of your stack.

either don't 3bet(not the best strategy but better than 3b/f) or get it in.

Def getting in QQ and pretty happy about it actually.

I don't think there's ever a time in poker that you should be 3-betting before first considering what you'll do against a 4b....

I think with TT/JJ we'd have some sort of discussion here. Personally I'm getting in JJ and probably flatting TT pre (against most) as I'm uncomfortable stacking off pre and think we can play it fine postflop. Sure it's difficult to play postflop OOP, but I think it's better than the alternative of 3-betting.

get it in ffs, not threadworthy at all

Very easy shove. Always know what you'll do when faced with a 4-bet from any of the opponents left to act. If $1100 causes you this much stress, don't play that high.

If you're playing high buy in MTTs you better get in the mindset of deciding what you were going to do if he 4-bets as part of your decision to 3-bet. I tell you for 100% sure your opponents are and if you're not they have an edge.

In this particular spot, I would spacewalk then jam when he 4-bets. You have about 90% of his button raises beat and more than enough of his 3-bet range. If he has AA or KK or his AK runs you down then tell him 'good game' and go get a burger.

Be careful here. Look at the sizes and the way it all happened and you will feel QQ is ok to push but you will often find his behavior is a Hollywood AA,KK play. Because ask yourself if he can fold here. He cant! He has priced himself into calling even with A5o. So ask yourself why is he doing that with a hand that he has to call a push always. He needs you to fold over 50%of the time. So its up to your range now.

What is your range when you 3bet? If one finds themselves in that spot do they 3bet with AQ? How about TT? JJ? (recall your stack is 67bb and the raise up to that point is 4bb). Can it be that you only 3bet say QQ-AA,AK and call with the rest because you find it more profitable to do so and own a loose wide range with less risk (and get value from a bully post flop too while posing as weaker) ? If that is the case then you fold less than 50% of the time say a possible QQ 50% of the time AKo and always push AA,KK,AKs (the last one due to removal effects behaves better than QQ vs a very top range) and never call because the stacks are ridiculous. His raising range with 2 limps and the blinds is often wide say 20% maybe a bit over that too. But then your 3bet to 10.7bb to take down 1+1+4+0.5+0.75=7.25bb does it make sense with the hands suggested when he has position vs you and you are priced to fold to a 4bet by him or the others, if they slow played something, plus you get called often by at least one meaning such a move with say TT,JJ,AJs,AQo is not exactly excellent choice (even if still ok) as it balloons the pot and you are now at flop with a somewhat big pot with a stack only 2 times larger than pot or so, with a not so stellar hand that either doesnt connect often or has overcards and is out of position.

Also correct OP details, if you fold you have 17k not 13k (if you have 13k a push with QQ is unavoidable), you started 20k and bet 3.2k so ~17 k left. You are asked to call 53% of your stack so you cant call, you push or fold.

Again pay attention to your image. Is the guy seeing your 3bet as wider than JJ-AA,AK? If he doesnt, if he thinks you call with the rest top hands to exploit his already wide range over the limps and blinds steal attempt, then his involvement with a 35bb 4bet to your 10.7bb 3bet is excessive and makes no sense as a bluff all that much if you and him are 2 of the best at the table. His chips are thrown in a wasted fashion here if he is real wide if you are a tight player.

Lets redo the math because although in the heat of the moment QQ is an easy push if you do the math here under proper behavior assumptions for both now it will start not looking as simple.

Lets discuss first what is the range you are seen as reraising here?

Would you reraise with AJs,AQo? With 99? With TT, JJ, AQs?

Or would you call with these hands say 75% of the time, reraise only with some the other 25%? Just tell us what you would reraise his typically light raise from btn with when you have 67bb. Would you escalate to 10.7bb with all those hands? If so then QQ is a push. If not then its a very tough disciplined fold.

Why does the guy spend so much time to tank and then raises so big that he cant escape a call now. Why didnt he reraise to say 27-28 bb that still looks intimidating but can now fold a 67bb push (thats a line that makes sense with a bluff or a blocker hand). Doesnt that look a lot like AA,KK yes please i dont care for folding but i want to let you be the one pushing not me?


I expect a QQ fold here to be a small error in a wide enough balanced game but not at all one in a soft field or if he sees you as a bit tight. Because if your answer to how you are seen is that the hands i mentioned above are a call not a 4bet for you in this situation, then his 4bet is KK,AA way too often than a typical JJ-AA,AK,AQ + some bluff range might suggest.

Also in a soft field an expert player that bluffs at this spot for so much is an idiot in my eyes because he is coin flipping a big part of stack over what??? The EV of such bluff here is ridiculous to be worthy in a soft field.

I need to edit the earlier post but its beyond control anymore. Apologies to all but what i said remains consistent for that case. Simply consider everything i said in that post in a scenario of 20k starting stack. I will restate things for a 16k situation in a new post later because i misread the initial post as 20k not 16k having started at 20k.

There will be now a harder time to fold QQ here but we need to redo the math to see why if so. It may turn to a simple push as well. To be sure live playing i would push without a doubt unless the table was very soft and it would be a waste to go into a flip battle with the other good player leaving the weak players alive.

I would not raise like that with intention to fold though, i would be even more careful about my intentions with such smaller stack and fine tune it to the style of that player. Its ridiculous to be folding so tight at this spot unless a read is very clear. But of course again for this reason such read may be possible looking at his sizing. Its not as simple as it looks or it feels live.