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Old 05-03-2017, 02:23 AM   #1
RunningAces
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Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

This hand is from the PokerStars National Highroller €2,200 Event in Monte Carlo played last weekend.

30/469 players remaining, so we are in the money.

Average stack is 390,000 and Blinds are 5,000 / 10,000 / 1,000.

MP (214,000) is a pro in his late twenties and has joined the table about an hour ago. He has raised a number of hands and folded to 3-bets.

SB (500,000) is a middle aged recreational player who plays somewhat loose. I wouldn't expect any tricky plays from him.

Hero is BB (420,000) and has not gotten out of line at this table. I am a 32y old winning recreational player but my image could be different.

MP raises to 22,000
SB calls 22,000
Hero has AhJh in the BB

I felt that

a) flatting
b) raising to about 70,000
c) shoving

could all have merits. My concern with flatting was that I don't want to let him get away with too many cheap attempts and I am certainly ahead of his range. On the other hand, AJs should have great playability across different boards.

I felt that raising would commit me to the pot again MP but would allow me to fold versus the SB, although I thought it was highly unlikely that SB was trapping. Therefore, since I am committing myself by raising, I felt that shoving would also be a viable option. However, I don't see him calling worse hands.

I feel that AJs is really borderline here. With ATs, I would happily call, while with AQ+ I would happily get it in.

Any thoughts?
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:42 AM   #2
lolposting2016
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Super easy 3b to like 60k or you could just make things simple and jam since sb can basically never call
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:39 AM   #3
OutPlayU27
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Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Really interesting spot, really curious to see what others have to say.
I'm pretty sure MP/pro was aware of his image, which makes 3bet/c pretty ambitious, and jamm could show us some profit (if they fold ) but don't think we get call by worse.
I'll flat cus is a nice hand to have in your BB defend and keep worse hands in there imo.


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Last edited by OutPlayU27; 05-03-2017 at 07:40 AM. Reason: Not that post above is bad or anything...
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:52 AM   #4
Beachman42
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

At this stage, I like flatting a little better then 3!.

We are OOP with a decent multi-way hand so let's see 3.

Curious, how *might* your image be different?

Last edited by Beachman42; 05-03-2017 at 09:53 AM. Reason: how do you see your image now?
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:31 AM   #5
fortisque
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Yeah really interesting spot actually. I don't like making a small 3 bet to 60k or so as you're basically not going to induce anything from MP. Also you don't need to shove here as there is a chance that SB could have flatted with a hand like AQ or 77-TT and might somehow make a hero call if you shove. You would never be shoving your premium hands so it doesn't make sense to have a shove range here. You could easily make it like 80-85k making it obvious you're committed against MP but being able to get away should SB somehow do something aggressive. Also SB might peel worse hands like suited Broadways and we'll have position and good post-flop playability having him dominated a lot.

Flatting of course is also great with a disguised hand with very good playability. Honestly for me it depends on how soft the tournament/remaining field is. If it's very soft, I would just flat and take the lower variance approach knowing I have a lot of future edges later, while if it's pretty tough 3bet/getting it in vs SB looks good.

Also depends on whether this is 8 or 9 handed and what position "MP" is. If it's like Lojack/Hijack more reason to get it in if it's MP1 more reason to flat.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:59 AM   #6
rbenuck4
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Seems like a pretty easy 3 bet get it in vs the opener. If the SB happens to do anything funny, then it's a pretty easy fold I think. I think pushing is awful, as you are only getting called by hands that crush you from the SB, and even though that's rare that he ever shows up with anything like JJ+, there still is no reason to do that. If we had AA, we would do the same (not shove, but just 3 bet/get it in), so why not do that with this hand as well.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:34 PM   #7
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

I think it's real simple flat
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Old 05-03-2017, 06:14 PM   #8
lolposting2016
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Thing is I'm not rly gonna just let a 20bb stack to be opening on my bb he's gonna have to raise fold almost everything and we block a big % of his r/c range. He'll have to fold a lot to 60k but vs a ~20bb open shoving is fine. Again cuz sb calling % is like under 5% so I'm not rly all that worried about him. It's rly nice to Win this pot nsd
Think it has to be a higher ev option than call
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:25 PM   #9
Minatorr
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Yep 3b pre
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:15 PM   #10
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Thing is I'm not rly gonna just let a 20bb stack to be opening on my bb he's gonna have to raise fold almost everything and we block a big % of his r/c range. He'll have to fold a lot to 60k but vs a ~20bb open shoving is fine. Again cuz sb calling % is like under 5% so I'm not rly all that worried about him. It's rly nice to Win this pot nsd
Think it has to be a higher ev option than call
opening on 'my bb'? he's opening MP, dont take it so personally

making it 60k gets SB to fold 95% of the time? nice troll
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:28 PM   #11
ltVilmas
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

3bet and call MP shove, fold if SB reshove
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:15 PM   #12
cicakman
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by watevs View Post
opening on 'my bb'? he's opening MP, dont take it so personally

making it 60k gets SB to fold 95% of the time? nice troll
He means when you shove
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Old 05-05-2017, 06:06 AM   #13
Chuck Bass
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

I think both flatting and 3b/call MP, fold to SB reshoves seem fine. If we perceive the opener as active and the SB's flat as dead money, then clearly 3b is the highest EV play. However, if we are unsure about their tendencies, nothing wrong with flatting. 70kish seems like a good 3b sizing
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:29 PM   #14
onehandatatime
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

I think AJo I 3 bet, but AJs I flat
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:47 AM   #15
lolposting2016
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Watevs gtfo for real tho love how you picked a new thread to come into to try and troll me
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:14 PM   #16
lolposting2016
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

(But at least in this effort you gave 1% of meaningless strat so good for you)
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:52 PM   #17
RalphWaldoEmerson
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

60k watafak?

3b to a size that commits MP like 4-5x, wtf am i missing?
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:58 PM   #18
RunningAces
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortisque View Post
Honestly for me it depends on how soft the tournament/remaining field is. If it's very soft, I would just flat and take the lower variance approach knowing I have a lot of future edges later
I believe this is probably the most crucial aspect and also one that I tend to forget a lot of times in the heat of battle. This specific tournaments had a lot of weak players and I would guess that at least half of the remaining 30 players were recreational / straightforward players.

Also, I think the difference in playing a 40BB stack (start of the hand) compared to a 20BB stack (when getting at in and losing) is way bigger than the difference between a 40BB stack and a 60ish BB stack (when getting it in and winning).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortisque View Post

Also depends on whether this is 8 or 9 handed and what position "MP" is. If it's like Lojack/Hijack more reason to get it in if it's MP1 more reason to flat.
The table was 8 handed and original raiser was either Lojack or Hijack
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:02 PM   #19
RunningAces
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachman42 View Post
Curious, how *might* your image be different?
No specific idea of how my image might be different. Just noticed from talking to other players on and off the table that the perception of my "status" varies greatly from fish to professional. But maybe I should just focus on playing a more consistent quality
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:59 PM   #20
ImaLouigi
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningAces View Post
Therefore, since I am committing myself by raising, I felt that shoving would also be a viable option. However, I don't see him calling worse hands.
Shipping 42 big blinds to pick-up 5.5 big blinds make no sense to me. MP can easily open here and fold to a 3-bet. If the MP 4-bet shoves, we get to re-evaluate after seeing what the SB does.

I would lean towards just calling since this hand plays well post-flop and we can conceal the strength of our hand. 3-betting is not a bad option either and could be a great option opponent specific/

Shoving is a terrible line in this spot.
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:30 PM   #21
lolposting2016
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

It's not 42 bb effective. You pick up blinds and antes plus the raise which is a lot. You can also get called and win
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:32 PM   #22
lolposting2016
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Forgot the sb stack but I think it's only mildly relevant cuz you almost never see him find a call
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:57 AM   #23
RunningAces
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Thanks for all your answers.

I ended up raising to 70k, the original raiser shoved for 214k total and I called. He had AQo and won the pot.
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:57 AM   #24
DivJacks10
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Re: Preflop decision in Monte Carlo €2,200 National Highroller

Shoving here is perfectly fine, calling is also fine. As others have stated perhaps shoving more AJo and calling more AJs is good because slightly better playability multiway and we still have position on the SB who we are relatively deep against and dominating his range.

Small reraise seems terrible imo, those of you saying you're never shoving AA here well you're just an unbalanced donk.
Of course if we shove and get called by raiser we're likely not doing too great and his raising range should be quite snug from 20bbs, but the SB is dead money and he can certainly still raise/fold a chunk of opens, as you say he has been doing of late. Shove is certainly +$$$.
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