Long post but I think it looks way better this way

Blinds: 250-500
Hero (BB): ~45k
UTG: ~30k
Todd (HJ): ~27k

I have arrived at the table ~1hour ago and haven't played many hands, except for maybe two flats + c/f flop.

A) Todd probably doesn't know me neither recognizes me as a reg. He's quite active and we have played a hand before when he opened KTcc UTG, girl flats on the CO, I squeeze OTB to 3x (bad sizing) and he snap flats, flop T83ss both check, I bet 60% he snap calls, girl shoves for 15bb more, I fold aces and he tank-calls (losing to her 88).

B) UTG seems to be good (probably also a reg but I don't know him), and he has raised UTG for the last 3 or 4 orbits).

_________ ________ _________ ________
Action:

1) UTG raises to 1.100k, Todd quickly makes it 2.850k. I have JJ in the BB

My hand will be kinda face-up when I flat, but I still think it's the best line. I'd like thoughts on my options here. I think Todd is light a bunch here due to the dynamics I have mentioned, while his value range is probably pretty small. (I was planning to 4bet a wide crappy range there until I looked at Jacks)


2) I flat. UTG thinks for 1minute and flats as well



Flop: Q85. (pot: ~8.350k)

3) I check, and both check behind. I think it's standard here and I can only imagine Todd checking back his trash hands, but maybe I'm wrong.



Turn: J (pot: ~8.350k)

4) I see merits on leading here vs other (worse) players but I'm sure he perceives my range as exactly what it is, and I decided to check. UTG checks, Todd bets 4800 and I call. Thoughts? UTG folds and we see the river:



River: 2 (pot: ~18k).

5) Todd thinks for ~30secs and bets 12k leaving ~7k behind

Hero: ?

His river bet is pretty strong, however I'm sure he knows I know that, and I really think he'd bet QQ on the flop, so we only lose to ~T9.

Are we debating between a call and a shove for 7k more? What is the dilemma here? The line looks good, now click the call button

He doesnt 3bet 88 and doesnt call worse than 88 (he probally doesnt call 88 either) so u have to only call river bcs he has discounted qq and t9 in his range

Only street i am unsure about is turn where betting looks strong and calling takes u the opportunity to get stacks in bcs c/r turn or c/c c/r river will look even stronger

Rlly interested in thoughts from some sickos on turn bcs the rest in the hand is prob standard and the reasons to make your decisions were perfect imo

I think Todds check back is stronger rather than weaker on that texture, or a hand he doesn't want to get check raised with at least.

I really really dislike a flat pre, I'd be fine with flatting AA/KK here to under-rep your hand because you don't have the image to induce a spew etc but it seems just bad to me to play JJ in a way that both your opponents are instinctively are going to put you on. Esp with stack sizes behind seeing you're pretty deepish and being OOP. I can see the reasons for flatting IP but I think in general its just going to be a really bad idea to play your hand so face up.

I much prefer clicking it back and getting him to hood a bunch of stuff or just 4bet/calling (I'm not too familiar with TT's game but is this not a spot where he could get gruesomely out of line?).

As for the flop, I think he is much more likely to cbet T9 than QQ's - and I'd be inclined to just call the river, don't see how he can have much of a calling range as I think he flats 88/55 pre and surely cbets with them. Actually his flop check makes me extremely suspicious. This again gives the problem of playing your hand so face up against a good player, I mean you've basically hit your gin flop but are unable to get value.

Come to think of it I actually prefer mucking pre to flatting there and flat AQs/AK maybe even KQs because he's going to barrel a lot of A/K (maybe Q) high flops in order to get you off exactly what he perceives to be your range (JJ-99)

I'm considering folding river after this bet sizing. Nobody else? I really don't think he's value betting worse (except if he's leveling trying to make it looks like this, but there's no level between us).

As for pre-flop I really think all possible options are reasonable (even mucking, since I'll really have easier/better spots against half the table). But from what I know about him, 4betting to induce a light 5bet is insane (due to him also knowing that table has at least 4 easy spots).

Dude, you're from Brazil. Just shove river.

+1 (:

He could easily check back a lot of 1 pair hands on the flop. Not sure if that's what you mean by "trash hands" though.

River seems like a trivial call.

Obviously, you ran into QQ or T9 if you made this thread, because otherwise folding wouldn't even be on your radar. I guarantee you didn't fold this when the hand happened. Personally, I'd lead the turn and say "F my hand being face up", I'll keep people from drawing for free and sometimes get value from worse. As played, I'd definitely CR the river to try to get value from some rando two pair or an overpair. I know Todd Terry's more likely to get away from a big hand than most, but come on we've got 2nd set on a board with no flush possible and only one straight and if we shove, he'll be getting 7:1 on his money.

live @ PCA, how the f did I not go ?

He can easily check QQQ. Infact by default he probably does.

Iggy is right, except I disagree with him on the CR part. I'm all for trying to bet and cr as thin as possible, but I think he (TFT) has to figure a significant part of OP's range is going to be say, TT+ AK pre based on preflop action. So he is betting well; and even at 7:1 for him to call, I wouldnt be looking to put extra money in on this board with a CR.

Thanks everyone for the input!

I can't even consider he knows that (though he's TFT so he probably does).

Nah I made the thread because I thought pre-flop, turn and river were really interesting decisions. I ended up calling because I'm a calling station and my biggest leak is that I can't accept the fact that I might be folding the best hand ;P but my A game says its a fold, even if my A game is bad and I'm wrong

I couldn't fathom folding here. Also, I agree w suitedbut and TT_fold, I don't think he's checking his trash hands on flop, I think he is checking back to get to showdown w/ marginal pairs/Qs, and also I guess sometimes he chks QQQ here

i think u played it perfectly, call river. How the f did u fold the aa on that first hand???????? absurd!!

i think TTs sizing is actually pretty small if he has QQ or T9 because u r not heroing him here with a pp that isnt a set and if u do have a set u r calling anyway i guess. at least he prolly had to assume this before u made this thread.

Yeah I also think that he will almost always check back his marginal-pair-hands, but we all agree my range is pretty faced-up to him, so there's no sense on him betting the flop with trash like 67o (or even T9o) if he knows I'm calling with most/probably all of my hands. Afaik Todd isn't the kind that will try to get opponents off the top of their range.

The sizing is big if he has a worse hand, that's what I meant.

you say this with the tone of it being a terrible fold right?

You say he has no idea who you are, right? How many randoms would just call with a set of Jacks on the turn? Virtually none IMO. You are under-repped. A fold is inconceivable. If he has QQ or 10 9, gg.

So at last tell us what he got?

You really think flatting makes more money than 4b/x OOP against two players you consider good? Seems absurd to me. 4b because Todd's light a lot and getting into this spot post sucks. Just make sure you're ready for your education cuz you get taken to dat ghetto university a lot.

lol, this.

nf i guess tho :/

also just call river now. never folding here

I don't wanna derail the thread with the AA hand, but there's reasoning behind the fold (way more than what I'm advocating here on the JJ .

(L) for NSB's post

stop it nsb

absurd as in really good fold that i could never make regarding the aa hand. Against Todd maybe you should fold. I reallllly doubt he's bluffing, he wouldn't play 88 this way and he'd only bet qq/910/jj(u have jj lol) this way for value imo. He would bet this size as a bluff too if he put u on kk or aa maybe... idk, really sick spot, folding might be right, but again i don't think i'd ever have it in me with such a monster hand.