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| High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of high stakes MTT hands and techniques |
03-10-2010, 12:45 AM
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#1
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 27,073
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My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Wish I could post more, but only lasted until 250/500.
This hand is against Faraz Jaka. Faraz is a fearless lag, capable of all kinds of bajunky stuff preflop and postflop. Stats of probably 40/30 with a 3b of 15% after he doubled up 15 minutes into the day.
My image has been solid, won some pots and lost some pots. I havent done anything out of the ordinary to make me look overly lag or nit. I won 2 big pots, quads and turned nut straight, so we are both deep.
Every street except the turn is up for debate, I think.
Eff. stacksizes are 40k at 75/150 no ante. Folds to Faraz in the HJ and he makes it 400. Folds to me in the BB and I have black AA. I just call.
Flop KK5r. I check, Faraz bets 500 into 875. I call.
Turn KK5Q bringing flushdraw. I check, Faraz bets 1200 into 1875. I call.
River KK5Q2 bringing in the 3flush. I check, Faraz bets 5k into 4275.
1) Should we have a 3betting range 275bb deep oop against this kind of player?
2) Anyone like donking the flop?
3) Is the river a fistpump call, slam-dunk fold, sighcall, or sighfold
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03-10-2010, 01:07 AM
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#2
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 939
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
I make a 3bet to 1600 if hes that reckless. He might view it as you not putting up with his bull**** anymore and go from there. River is very close but with his described image i cant imagine folding.
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03-10-2010, 01:19 AM
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#3
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adept
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,162
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Why not 3bet this preflop? If he doesnt view you as a nit he is going to think you are 3betting him with a wideish range here I would imagine. I would 3bet and either a)create a bigger pot preflop b)let him do something spazzy.
I hate donking the flop. Unless he is going to raise a flop lead with air a ton I don't see how leading is better than c/c. I would imagine a LAG player is going to bet this flop always if checked to.
Any reads on the overbet? Have you seen him do that before?
You say he is a LAG, how thin do you think he is valuebetting here? How often do you think he is double barreling?
I would imagine he is double barreling a TON on that tunrcard. Pretty much everything turned into at least a gutshot. So he can get to the river with a very wide range of air.
Other than the flush, all of his semibluffs missed the river. Being that your hand is fairly underrepresented (you definitely have one of the strongest hands one would imagine you showing up with here) I would imagine he is talking himself into three barrelling fairly often. I think its probably often enough to make this a call.
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03-10-2010, 01:37 AM
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#4
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old hand
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,751
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
I really like the flat preflop, The problem with 3 betting is this deep w/ no antes you can never make the pot big enough to decrease the edge of playing oop vs jaka. He is gonna flat ur 3 bet so much and make your life a living hell post flop.
Flop -> I like the chk call, You really have no need to play a huge pot here jsut because omgz u have AA, you still only have a 1 pair hand and as crazy as frazy is he isnt gonna spew 275bbs with worse then that here.
Turn --> Anyone here ever lead this turn? I dont mind chk/call , but i feel that we need to bet and charge Jaka here to protect our hand since there are a ton of bad rivers here? Dont really like C/R/ Fold to 3 bet on flop. Dont think a Lead/Call here is that bad on turn? But i still like chk/call here also for the same reasons as the flop.
River --> I dont know here, it looks like we are calling all rievrs given how its not much relative to our stack here? Like we have 30k here i dont think he expects s to make a big laydown here for 1/6th of our stack . Is folding the river bad? Idont know it may be but i really think this is value cause given his image he knows a lot of people prob wont fold to him here?
Only way i see him barreling a hand like JT on riv here is if he puts u on like 77? which really is the same as AA here.
Cliffs- Sighfold river.. as played gh maybe lead turn to protect ur hand?
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03-10-2010, 01:43 AM
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#5
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old hand
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,231
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
fairly important to tell the suits of the turn/river.
A call pre is good.
Seems like a bad spot to donk the flop. Vs this player, he could throw some raises and bets in to make your life hell, no?
chck call flop and chck call turn seem super standard.
How quickly did he bet the flop, the turn, and most importantly the river? With someone like him at my table I'm certainty going to be paying close attention to his behavior when in hands and use what I gather beforehand in this river spot. I'm not really sure if any of us could give you clear cut river advice without being at the table. My first instinct would be to sighfold because of his sizing, but any notes that he overbet 3barrels rivers often or tries to win EVERY pot could sway my opinion.
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03-10-2010, 01:48 AM
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#6
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veteran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hibernating
Posts: 3,188
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
1.) No we most certainly should not, especially if he knows who we are.
2.) I like donking here against villains with a narrower pfr, who are unlikely to fire more than one barrel with air or vbet thin on this texture... against the toilet, not so much.
3.) How thin is he V-betting here? Seems like with his image he could/should be v-betting turn and riv when he pairs the Q on fourth, since your range is mostly PPs. How often does he think you have a K here? I'm not saying you are, but many players are at the top of their range here with AA, and for many more it's JJ (due to AA getting 3b 100%) , in which case he could even V bet JJ here. How often do you think he thinks you have trips or >?
I like his overbet here alot, fwiw, and though I'm not sure how much complete air is in his range, I think we still need to be clicking call (and folding JJ).
EDIT: Somehow I missed the flush coming in... I still think the bottom of his vbetting range will be the same, since you pretty much never have a flush, but that adds quite a few v-combos that beat you... now, I think it might be a sigh fold?
Last edited by Halowax; 03-10-2010 at 02:00 AM.
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03-10-2010, 05:10 AM
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#7
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adept
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 1,151
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
i like it.
Pre is fine against a LAG from HJ, obv 3bet pre is fine too but i prefer a flat here.
on the river AA=JJ so i don't know if he's trying to extract max value against a solid player who is repr. a big hand or f he's trying to induce a hero-fold with some Kx (thst's spewy imho). sighfold imho
Don't lead the flop
Last edited by Tightordie; 03-10-2010 at 05:35 AM.
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03-10-2010, 05:14 AM
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#8
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old hand
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,495
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
I think flatting preflop is a HUUUUGE mistake.
In the Biloxi 10k in January, there was a hand where Faraz opened, Floes 3b, and a friend of mine who was playing very snug at the time and had not 3b pre but maybe like once in the first level, cold 4b with KK, Faraz 5b, and for w/e reason my friend was a retard and mucked, and Faraz showed a 5.
So basically, your image is almost irrelevant, as long as he has chips to raise with, he will almost always do so.
I would make it 1200-1400 and expect a 4b pretty often, in which case I'd basically just go into c/c any mode, unless we feel like he actually has something at some point postflop.
As played, I think flop is debatable, but going into call mode is likely best, because Faraz fires more barrels than the original Donkey Kong.
Turn, cant imagine playing it any differently.
River I'd snap call as to not level myself into folding, because your hand looks a lot like a middling PP which will have a hard time calling that river, even though your relative hand strength is basically the same as 22, in his mind you are probably always folding the lower pairs in your range, and he probably expects you to actually have a hand better than like TT here next to never.
EDIT: Ok preflop isn't a HUUUUGE mistake, but I still think we're missing a lot of value, it's not like Faraz plays GTO or is gonna be perfectly balanced postflop. I think we are better off building the pot and if he somehow makes a better hand than us, well then, we pay that man his money.
I should also add that I think Faraz is a sicko and I hate playing against him, but he is without question of the most absurdly LAG regulars in MTT poker, and should be treated as such.
Last edited by DFish; 03-10-2010 at 05:23 AM.
Reason: was a bit extreme
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03-10-2010, 05:38 AM
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#9
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adept
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 1,151
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFish
River I'd snap call as to not level myself into folding, because your hand looks a lot like a middling PP which will have a hard time calling that river, even though your relative hand strength is basically the same as 22, in his mind you are probably always folding the lower pairs in your range, and he probably expects you to actually have a hand better than like TT here next to never.
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Could u explain plz?
as you said our hand strenght is the same as 22 (not exactly but ok) but i think he expects we really hae really often a hand better than TT here..
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03-10-2010, 05:40 AM
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#10
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newbie
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Judging from the line you took preflop, i think with the given board it is an easy call on the river.. The only tricky thing for me is the 5K bet on the river.. Donks do it to steal the pot ( and u easily call them ) but many good players do it to get you thinking they are stealing the pot.. Maybe he puts you on some kind of middle pair and tries to force you out.. Anyway i would flat called the river..
By this kinda of play from your opponent you cant really tell if hes got the flush.. So i wouldnt be bothered by the flush draw..
As for preflop play i think your decision in this spot against this kinda player was good..
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03-10-2010, 05:45 AM
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#11
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,569
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcmatto
He is gonna flat ur 3 bet so much and make your life a living hell post flop.
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People say this all the time, but what does it really mean? He's going to bluff us when we're gonna fold and he's gonna value bet us when we're gonna call? Why can't we play better than him. I mean we have AA, we're gonna have the best hand by the river ~80% of the time. I can't imagine how playing it OOP for a 3-bet pot can be -EV. How bad are we at postflop play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcmatto
Cliffs- Sighfold river here.. as played gh maybe lead turn here to protect ur hand here?
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Also, FYP.
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03-10-2010, 05:51 AM
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#12
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,569
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFish
I would make it 1200-1400 and expect a 4b pretty often, in which case I'd basically just go into c/c any mode, unless we feel like he actually has something at some point postflop.
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I feel like it's better to 5-bet to like 2.3x his 4-bet then flat the 4-bet.
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03-10-2010, 06:02 AM
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#13
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old hand
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,495
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tightordie
Could u explain plz?
as you said our hand strenght is the same as 22 (not exactly but ok) but i think he expects we really hae really often a hand better than TT here..
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Well I guess he could expect us to have JJ, but I'm almost positive he'd expect us to 3 bet QQ+ and AK preflop, so with that information it'd be hard for us to have better than JJ in this spot, so he could either go for value with something like QJ because his image is so absurd that he'd get called by worse sometimes (which would probably be a justifiable call). But he definitely doesn't think we have Kx or a flush, and I guess there's a minute chance we could be slowplaying a boat, but other than that we have JJ- almost always, at least in his mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAllInNow
I feel like it's better to 5-bet to like 2.3x his 4-bet then flat the 4-bet.
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Ya, you could be right, especially being OOP I don't think he'd probably give up after 4 betting so you could probably get at least one more bet in there, but calling can't be too much worse.
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03-10-2010, 06:22 AM
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#14
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old hand
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: amsterdam
Posts: 1,477
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
nh, call river. You only have to be good about 36% of the time and Faraz is crazy.
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03-10-2010, 06:25 AM
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#15
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old hand
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: amsterdam
Posts: 1,477
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Re: My 1 interesting hand from Bay101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAllInNow
People say this all the time, but what does it really mean? He's going to bluff us when we're gonna fold and he's gonna value bet us when we're gonna call? Why can't we play better than him. I mean we have AA, we're gonna have the best hand by the river ~80% of the time. I can't imagine how playing it OOP for a 3-bet pot can be -EV. How bad are we at postflop play?
Also, FYP.
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Our 3betting range will be so narrow in this spot that we are better off not having a 3betting range at all. If we 3bet solely AA or let's say KK+ it will be ridiculously easy to raise any low/connected flop and just (over)bet the next two streets to put us in an extremely difficult spot where our hand is our faceup and we know that he knows that. You just enter an incredibly tough levelling game vs a rly good player for multiple times the starting stack
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