no ****.....but John K wants to jack up variance obviously because he knows JT is a dog and a ****ing clueless ****ing idiot joke goddamnit this is tilting me...YOUR DEFENDING A GUY THAT MADE INDEFENSIBLY IDIOTIC PLAYS WHILE PLAYING FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ****ING DOLLARS......HE'S GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY GODMODED WHILE TRYING HIS BEST TO PUNT W 42O...AND THEN 3B/CALLS OFF A7O FOR 50 BBS HE OBVIOUSLY HAS NEVER OPENED UP POKERSTOVE IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE IF HE CALLS THERE AND HAS NO IDEA ABOUT RANGES OR ANYTHING......HE'S A ****ING STANDARD LIVE ****ING PRO IDIOT JOKE AND I HOPE TO TEACH HIM A LESSON BUT YOU GUYS ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.....

YOU CHOSE STAKES 25-50 ILL START W/ 10K YOU SAY 50-100 ILL START W/ 20K YOU SAY 200-400 ILL START W/ 80K W/E THE FK U WANT U TELL ME

OR U CAN BE

Sorry guys, that's 3 no's. Joe's offered the parameters and I explained why. Joe is accepting TBJ's offer of any games/stakes live (his words) and he came back w/ a reasonable set of parameters.

Idk if you guys are asking for these other parameters because you guys want to sweat it or are friends/acquaintances of TBJ and that's what he wants, or think this is the best way to prove who's better but all of it is totally irrelevant. I'm not going to give the reasons, I posted them all above.

Justin Schwartz
I CONSIDERED US SORT OF POKER FRIENDS JASON MO
IF YOU ARE ON TEAM TEHAN IM GONNA MAKE YOU AN ENEMY
3:47 AM
Justin Schwartz
ive pla yed many hands terribly but ive never played a hand terrible and analyzed it as terribly and ******ed as joe has ITT that show he's ***** clueless
take a shot at taking a gamble for 140k lol
as if the payjump matters it could be 1.4million or 14c it should just be +cEV
or +$EV
but ***** guy is a ***** moron
and has no clue about underlying math of poker
which is pretty damn evident by how terrible his shortstack play is
klink10k
yeah i mean i talked with him about all the hands, his reasoning was a bit off but it wasn't nearly as bad as he came off in those interviews
Justin Schwartz
and im willing to bet/guess that a guy like that wont have an edge vs me hunl in which ive spent a lot of time and am no where near the "elite guys" but im good enough to bumhunt and better than most 5-10 ****ty regs
ok
ppl are jokes and get butthurt cuz i used the word "scam"
and talked about ethics of marketplace
they are ***** clueless
like i care about joe tehans character
klink10k
i mean, he plays tons of live cash and has done very well in those games, i still think he is +ev vs. a lot of fields
yeah
i mean marketplace is a scam
Justin Schwartz
yes
a lot of ppl scam
i called XXXXX out for it a lot....
i hate how he "grinded marketplace markup"
klink10k
yeah
Justin Schwartz
thisi s nothing new
i have my opinion
klink10k
YYYYYYYY does it too
Justin Schwartz
its nothing personal w/ joe
i think its disgusting
and ******ed
if you sell something you wouldn't buy
you know
if like you were going to sell something at 1.7
that you wouldn't buy at 1.4
you are scamming
IMO
idk how big the gap is obv it depends for everyone
and the amount of $
but thats just how it
is
in how i believe and think
klink10k
yeah
i agree with that
don't think joe thinks he is worse than what he is selling for
Justin Schwartz
i said that ITT
klink10k
especially no rake on epl + overlay
Justin Schwartz
i actually said i think he's ignorant
and has no clue
how to calculate his ROI
or what his edge is
and just guessed
1.2
or w/e
and i said i dont think ignorance has any excuse against something being a scam
and made that analogy
klink10k
yeah but a ton of people are awful at judging themselves
Justin Schwartz
but ppl still try to say
that im assasinating his character
no
klink10k
they think they are worth way more than they are
Justin Schwartz
im analyzing how this luckbox played poker hands
this is true
lots of poker players are delusional
phil hellmuth thinks he's one of the best
but he's probably -ev even w/ hte overlay in those fields
given the payout structure and the good structure i think you need to be a solid/good shorthanded player
or you won't even ever reap the benefits of the added $
cuz its soooo top heavy
klink10k
yeah
Justin Schwartz
and joe just punted it
3handed
vs 2 superior players
basically just giving up/being clueless
klink10k
yeah i mean those hands were real bad
Justin Schwartz
i mean if he 3b/calls A7o for 52bb he's obviously never opened pokerstove in his life
klink10k
usually he plays pretty well
Justin Schwartz
like
QJs is even understandable
if u want to "gamble"
but vs any reasonable 4b ranges
klink10k
yeah
don't need to explain to me
Justin Schwartz
yes im jealous yes i had a bad year but how he and his idiot friend are rationalizing
i know what i'm talking about
i'm not a ****ing ignorant live pro moron
and i play more hunl than him
and prob have a good edge
maybe not as much depending how good he is hu
but w/e
doesn't matter
and i do care about the marketplace
i saw you invested inhim
didni't know u were friends w/ him
pissed me off
klink10k
heh
Justin Schwartz
im serious
klink10k
yeah i understand
i mean im prety good about picking my spots to invest
talked a ton of poker with joe
Justin Schwartz
people trying to say i tried to drag his name thru the muck
are ***** clueless
you know me
im just ***** mad he's a lucky idiot
selling at unfair markup
klink10k
hes way better than he comes off in those hands and in that interview
Justin Schwartz
ok
maybe
i trust you for that
i still would bet on myself hu
how much hu has a livep layer even played?
klink10k
yeah don't know how good either of you are at hu tbh
Justin Schwartz
ive played a lot of highstakes hunl
has he ever even played?
klink10k
yeah
don't know how his game is
Justin Schwartz
but yes
klink10k
prob not too great but he is pretty good deep
Justin Schwartz
im aware its irrelevant
blahblah
500bb deep
just variance
/******ed
whoever coolers someone first
klink10k
yeah
Justin Schwartz
its really ******ed
klink10k
i mean the whole thing is real dumb
Justin Schwartz
i mean
there are ways
to set it up
where its more skill oriented
his boy obv just wants to jack up variance n show that joe can play
and not just get worked
klink10k
just play like 5 freezouts imo
Justin Schwartz
plz tell him that lol
the idea of one 500bb freeze is ***** dumb
klink10k
i mean i still don't get the point of the hu match
whoever wins, nothing really changes
just someone wins money
i just felt pretty bad for him

FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME I HAVEN'T SAID ANY GAME ANY STAKES LIVE.....ILL PLAY HIM ANY BIG BET GAME.....ANY STAKES UP TO 200-400$......WE WILL USE W/E THE CASINOS STANDARD MINIMUM BUYIN IS.....

**** YOU YOU HUSTLING IDIOT MORON ****ING DOUCHEBAG.....I HOPE YOU ****ING ROT IF YOU WANT TO BE STUBBORN....THEN ****ING BE STUBBORN I DONT GIVE A **** MILLION OTHER IDIOTS SOME EVEN BIGGER THAN JOE.....I'VE BEEN REALISTIC AND FAIR AS ANYONE WOULD AGREE....IF YOU ARE CALLING ME A PUSSY FOR NOT PLAYING 500BB SINGLE FREEZEOUT....THEN LOL AT YOU.

I'M TRYING TO PROVE HE'S A ****ING MORON THATS ALL I CARE ABOUT IF HE WANTS TO BACK DOWN FROM REASONABLE HUNL BATTLE LIVE IN HIS HOME...THEN COOL...HE CAN BACKDOWN....I SAID I'LL START W/ 10K FLY TO HIM AND HAVE IT BE STREAMED.....ITS ON HIM TO ACCEPT OR DECLINE....IF HE DECLINES I THINK THE MESSAGE WILL BE CLEAR FOR WHOEVER CAN ****ING READ/UNDERSTANDS POKER.

Did I say I'll play you any game any stakes? He likes playing deep eh? Why not just make it 1-2 NL blinds then.....we'll sit 10k deep. lol.....just a joke......
joke joke joke joke joke joke joke player joke friend

team tehan moves on you

you pick location/blinds/live vs online (i thought live battleship is good combo but w/e)/ obviously your not looking for a series of freezeouts cuz u want joe to have best chance to get lucky and "prove me wrong" (lol ok idiots)

The fact of the matter is 500bb nl freezeouts or 300bb nl freezeouts live make it impossible for there to be multiple matches.....so its a joke to say you'll only play at that...200bb is even pushing it but w/e.....ill be fine w/ it.....

joe can decline and we can just lock this thread up no need to waste anymore time talking to this ****ing moron.

If I declined a 1$-2$ NL Freezeout with 10k stacks because I didn't want to waste my time would I be a pussy for saying I'd play him any big bet game any stakes and turning it down because the idiot likes to play "really really deep?"

lol....500bbs is ridiculous.....grow up.....or just stop the challenge.

joe's friend even agrees...listen to your boy!

I should be clear if we want to raise the stakes we can play 50-100 w/ 20k or 75-150 with 30k

You see the word I used there!

A sum of money or something else of value gambled on the outcome of a risky game or venture: "playing dice for high stakes".

Is the definition I got.

#justsayin
#looksliketeamtehanisscaredb

Lol at your response TBJ. Did Joe or I say Joe was playing you to determine who the better player was? That obviously can't happen in a short amount of time...actually it would take a marathon of sorts to really determine who is really the better player.

You called out Joe, you did say ANY GAME/ANY STAKES LIVE...I will repost it for you if you'd like. It's in the initial post here if you want to check. You've been calling him a fish, donkey..on and on..but the most (and really only) damaging words you've thrown around are calling him a scammer because he can't play poker. Maybe the whole point of a match is to show you he's got some game, maybe a little, but just enough to show you that he isn't the biggest fish and isn't scamming people knowingly based on his skills.

All we've been asking you is to stop calling him a scammer...he has no qualms about you calling out his plays, what he should be charging, etc. but to categorize him as a scammer defames his character and you're out of line w/ that. Heck, the entire 2+2 community who would side w/ you a lot more often than Joe (you being a notable, Joe not) agree that he was not scamming anybody.

As for the match, consistently you've put down his game, called him a joke, asked for hu matches LIVE, and if you check back all your earlier posts, it's apparent you wanted to play him in any game, any format, as long as you got a chance to play him to prove to the world how lol bad Joe was at poker.

Joe accepted, and since you kept going on about how you would take all his money and how he was the biggest fish, Joe wanted it on terms that would give him the best fighting chance against you that wasn't totally unreasonable (50bb stacks are a lot more unreasonable than 500bb stacks).

Now you keep making excuses of why you won't play him 500bbs deep. I am just lol'ing reflecting on all the accusations, put downs, wanting to play Joe at just about any cost, and you're finding reasons to not wanting to play Joe on his terms (which again, isn't outrageous).

Idk, maybe you found out you can't muster up the stake. Maybe you were sure Joe would never accept your hu4rollz offers because a guy that seemingly played 2-3 hands poorly must suck at poker bad and would never play a 2+2 legend (in your eyes) (you should've listened to that poster that said you were barking up the wrong tree), but most likely the real reason is that you know that you're probably b/e at best vs. Joe in a 500bb deep nl hu match and don't want to agree to the terms. Again, idk.

Anyway Joe accepted your hu match on his reasonable terms and if you don't want to accept, fine...just admit that he isn't the joke that you initially made him out to be, and admit he wasn't scamming anybody.


You want to teach him a lesson but getting offered to play 500bbs deep is ridiculous? So playing 500bbs deep takes no skill and is pure luck? Lol...seriously just stfu before you look more clownish w/ every post.

I'm of the opinion that 250bbs doesn't require more skill, it's just a different skill set. It's the reason why a ton of players who know how to play super deep well have trouble with 15-30bbs and vice versa for the players who are more skilled shallower. Joe is a cash player, Stealthmunk is a better online mtt player which is more geared to shallower stacks. I'm guessing there is probably no match here because both sides are so far apart on the parameters they want.

Also honestly, these threads aren't getting anywhere, it's probably time to lock everything associated with this except one thread, which should probably be locked as well.

don't want that convo with stealthmunk to be taken out of context, i don't think Joe was charging too high of markup (I even bought action in him) and in the future EPL event i would have no problem buying a piece of him at the same markup, mostly due to the added equity, structure of the tournament and Joe's familiarity with the field.

anyways, carry on with the hu4rolls...

gotta love TBJ, hope this happens

I'm going to bed, not reading that latest post by John K. just putting him on ignore...he writes too long...and spews too much idiocy....and i highly doubt joe has experience playing hunl >300bb deep.....but w/e i may be wrong....just people demanding highest variance possible to someone they know won't take that high variance of a route so there won't be a match......

if joe wants to be reasonable and accept a live hunl cash game challenge....i promise ill sit 200bb deep min to start

then we can do it...or we can raise the BB and discuss # of freezeouts...but that just isn't really feesible because its going to take too much time....but if we get money locked in and play hours set.....then sure i'm down....it just will take multiple days....

if you're insisting on a single 500bb freezeout....smd you idiot....gn....hopefully joe tehan himself can post ITT or maybe Jason Mo or Shaun Deeb can talk some sense into joe.....as obviously John K is a ****ing moron.

IGNORED.

moving on with my life....other people from TEhan gogogo

browsed it.....read my AIM with klink (one of joe's friends) it should touch very clearly on scamming.....if you still think scamming defames ones character.....you are mentally ******ed....i said i think he's ignorant and had no intention of ever ripping anyone off....but still did....so its a scam by definition.....we can argue semantics for years upon years ive explained my side you just refuse to listen.

luckily Jason Mo isn't ******ed as you are so I'm able to talk to one person on team tehan that might make this happen....lets just hope he talks eventually or says he doesn't want to play 200bb HUNL freezeouts live....or doesn't want to play hunl live at all and holds to his guns with ridiculously deep live in la only....

ive obviously given a lot more here than JT....but i have to ignore you now because you are unbearably stupid and actually starting to tilt me with your stupidity.

and i've even said in thread that epic poker 1.3 i believe is break even w/ added money....so its not that bad although i believe slightly terrible...the issue is 1.2 at WPTS where a player such as joe and the slightly worse structure will inevitbly lead to shallower stacks where Joe clearly has no clue and is completely out of his element as shown clearly by many hands (k6,a7,24o) and his thought process explaining his decisions in those hands.

i'd imagine joe is at best about breakeven in EPL which means at 1.3 he is offering investors a neutral EV gamble....while he freerolls....and luckboxes.....sad, yes. disgusting, yes. scummy, no. scam, yes. am i jealous, yes. is joe a terrible person, no? should people buy action of joe in the future, (up to them after seeing those hh and analysis and this thread

at least they will be more educated! and not blindly go off results which mean very little in the small sample size especially considering how different poker was even just 4 years ago vs how it is today.

john k even though you don't caps lock spam to say 50bb hu is more unreasonable then 500 clearly shows a major lack in the stacksize that TBJ is insulting JT at. Also, TBJ is making his points a lot weaker due to his anger in his posts he's more wrong then right on a lot of points but they are seriously lacking for the nvg type crowd to be so aggressive. Anyways I really hope this happens think the idea of l@tb streaming it would be pretty cool I'd even try to fly in for commentary as well

Yeah, but it's unreasonable to insult and challenge a live pro to HU4R and then expect to play 50 BB matches online. Since live = VERY limited # of matches (prob 1), and if Joe is indeed "an idiot and a terrible poker player", then the more BBs the merrier, no? Slow pace that deep shouldn't be that much of a problem, as Joe doesn't seem particularly nitty.

200 BB match (50/100 20k stacks) is a very reasonable counteroffer (you guys can add antes if you want), but it would be even more reasonable for Justin to apologize (normally, not half-ass), not because he's scared (though he might be 500 BB deep), but because he is wrong, and squash this.

I think that Joe is 100% +EV at 1.3 in EPL events now that I have taken a look at the field. I don't know if I sound biased or not, but ill take Joe if someone reputable wants to sell his action at 1.3 in the next EPL event (including equity in the freeroll) ill snap up some action just to put my money where my words are. With WPTs, I have no idea what they are like in terms of field and structure so I can't really comment.

Even though no one will really reach a sample size in live events to even come close to determining true ROI, Joe has had fantastic results over a long period of time that you really can't just discount to total variance. Also I don't think he is putting too much weight on his WPT win years ago, he has had a very profitable 2010 and 2011.

50 bb stacks are way more unreasonable than 500 imo, although both are pretty dumb. 50 hu doesn't mean that they will always be playing 50bbs effective, but the match will range from 0-50 bbs effective stacks so you are playing 20-30 bbs deep for a majority of the match. Same with 500, although they will be very deep for a good portion of the match, they will only going to be 200-300 bbs effective on average.

Clearly the best way to structure this is to do X number of 200 -250 BB freeze outs where the bigger X is the less variance there is.

I am all for this match even though its one of the most ******ed resolutions to all of this. Its really no different than Justin calling out Joe's MTT ability, then Justin and Joe playing mario kart or something to prove who is the better MTT player.

Ill also book some small bets on Joe in the HU match. I have a lot of respect for munk in terms of poker ability just based on my interactions with him so its fairly unlikely Joe has an edge, but its also pretty ridiculous at the number of awful mtt grinders (or former awful mtt grinders, now busto NVG tards) who know nothing about HU or Joe's game that are just willing to write him off as a bad player based on a couple of hands.

I just don't see what definition of scamming could be feasibly applied to JT. He sold in a marketplace (that through generally accepted principles should determine its own price) at a price he deemed acceptable for his expected ROI (whether he actually is +EV @ 1.2:1 or whether he is ignorant about his edge is completely irrelevant). People bought at this price. Even if you deem it to be a bad deal, then it is fine saying it is a bad deal and maybe even posting in the thread that you think 1.2:1 is too high (in my limited experience in the marketplace, it seems people do this quite often, and quite tactfully). To say he is a scammer is ridiculous. This implies he was trying to get an edge that I even think you would admit he likely wasn't trying to gain.

In poker, like the streets, your name is your name. Our business relies so much on reputation, that it is important to uphold one's reputation. Calling someone a scammer is effectively like someone calling a Black person the N-word; it is intended to disgrace, belittle, and insult their character. There is a reason why the ultimate action one can take to drag someone's name through the mud is to start a www.randomplayerisascammer.com. It likely prevents any future business for this person. While you may not intend to do this, you are effectively denying him any action (no matter the markup, with which you may disagree) by labeling him as such. The diction you use here is terrible, and should be amended because he has done nothign of the sort.

As for skill edge in relation to stack depth, clearly there is more skill level(and consequently, less variance) as stack depth increases. Yes, they are different skills, but there is a reason the best short stackers win at 1.5ptbb and the best deep stack players can reach near 5ptbb consistently in cash. There is more play into later streets, meaning more decisions and a higher complexity to those decisions. I see an argument against playing at a certain depth because it becomes correct to play 'slower' and therefore the game might become too boring/monotonous, but lol @ 50bb actually showing any HUNL skill, especially in a best of 7 match. I personally would want to see a best of 7 200bb+ match, and from personal experience, I know 200bb can still be very interesting and quick.

Also I agree w/ pretty much everything Klink has said

John K: Joe Tehan is not a scammer, and will play you 500 bbs deep to prove it!

I'm assuming TBJ must have some redeeming qualities in real life, considering the number of friends he has here, because his online persona must be one of the least likeable on the internet. The overinflated belief in his own intelligence mixed with extreme negativity seems like a terrible combination for a poker player.

Whatever the details of this episode are, JT and his friend John have been utterly reasonable in the face of continuous abuse and snide comments from TBJ.

I really don't know what to tell you anymore (along w/ numerous others that have defined "scam" and gave many clear examples).

I have no idea what your 2nd statement means, so maybe I am stupid.

Summary up to this point and an offer to TBJ to end things in a civilized manner (not Hu4rollz).

Whether this hu match goes down, idk, and it was never Joe's intent to seek to play TBJ hu. He tried to explain his logic in the other thread in a couple of hands he played poorly in a live mtt. Did he do a good job? Probably not. Did he play those hands well? Probably not.

Well Joe took everybody's comments in stride as he doesn't care whether people think he plays bad or not (since his only purpose in poker is to make money and provide for his family and himself...he doesn't seek the approval of others' acknowledging his play). Did he deserve some bashing for his play? Sure. He is not a perfect poker player, he isn't the greatest player either, but he will make mistakes, just like we all do from time to time. Even if he didn't come across as a good player in the thread (and sometimes posting, especially for a newbie like Joe, it's hard to express your thoughts in an insightful manner that some respected 2+2ers are able to do), he did not deserve to be called a scam artist, a scammer, repeatedly by TBJ.

If you notice others explained why he misplayed his hands and Joe nor I argued against that (maybe Joe once or twice, but in a respectful way). I actually stayed out of the whole thread because I felt like there was nothing to add to it even though Joe is my bf in poker. The time I intervened is when TBJ started calling Joe a scammer and how he scammed everybody by selling shares and nobody should buy any more shares from this **** (many bad words) again.

I then asked Joe if he wanted me to continue to speak for him and he said yes. Along w/ everybody else, I told TBJ he can express how poorly Joe played the hands, what his thoughts about his mu's and future mu's should be but please don't call Joe a scammer, because he is anything but that. In a time when almost every other NVG thread is about a real scammer, it is totally unfair and wrong of TBJ to call Joe that. Joe's reputation, character, future market action, did not deserve this.

Joe's gone about being a professional poker player as well as anybody can the past 8 years. Those that knew Joe as a person or hung out w/ him once or twice had nothing but good things to say about him. As a good friend who knows how genuine Joe is I refused to stand idly by while this notable who everybody seemed to look up to and respect (and he even said he had a lot of pull in the 2+2 community...more of a reason why I asked him to stop calling Joe a scammer) kept bashing Joe's character.

I, along w/ numerous others (a lot that don't even know Joe) tried to convince TBJ Joe didn't pull a scam, but to no avail. I ask you this...if a well respected notable 2+2'er continued to call you a scammer when you know in your heart (not to mention how well you conduct yourself) you are not, what would you do? (directed at everybody)

Joe and I talked about this. Well I suggested to Joe play him hu, even though we both think it's childish and really never solves anything. The reason I suggested it is because a big reason TBJ kept calling Joe a scammer was because he thought Joe was a fish and therefore for him to pass himself off as a winning player and sell action was a scam, and I wanted Joe to show him that he's a competent player so maybe he'll realize Joe wasn't scamming people.

Did we know who TBJ was? No, all we knew was that he was some respected 2+2er who had ears whenever he spoke. Because TBJ insulted Joe every way possible and repeatedly asked to play Joe hu in anything live (yes those were his words, whether he keeps denying it or not...it's all there in posts), Joe wanted to play a game he felt like he could have the greatest edge over TBJ. What was wrong w/ that when TBJ was the one calling him out, calling him a scammer, calling him a terrible player? The onus is on TBJ to accept the challenge after all his insults.

Now TBJ backtracks some and denies some of the things he's said (which are all excuses since they're clearly there for everybody to see) about playing Joe hu under certain terms. The one thing he doesn't backtrack on though is his insistence that Joe is a scammer and this is the heart of this thread, not a Hu4Rollz match to determine who the better player is.

Well, it seems like this match has come to a standstill with neither side agreeing to the other's side. I'll leave judgement up to the public in determining who's looking worse.

Anyway it's apparent that TBJ won't stop calling Joe a scammer, even though everybody's agreed that he isn't and that it's definitely a defamation of one's character, no matter how loosely the term is being used. Actually I'm curious to know what single word is more damaging to a professional poker player's livelihood? I'm sure scammer is near the top if not tops.

I'm done trying to convince TBJ to stop because it's taking up too much of my time to be arguing w/ some kid that is clearly wrong (not just my opinion, but pretty much all of 2+2...I'm curious why none of TBJ's friends who are probably respected 2+2ers as well have agreed that Joe scammed people). I (and Joe) leave the hu match on the table under the parameters we set if TBJ wants it (for no other reason than that Joe may luckbox his way to a win and TBJ might finally conclude Joe is competent and therefore not a scammer).

Also I'm done arguing w/ TBJ because I think most of 2+2 and everybody respected realize that Joe isn't a scammer, no matter what TBJ says, and ultimately that was our goal. It's just too bad one respected member refuses to believe so. I just hope Joe isn't associated w/ that word when he posts future action in the marketplace, or ever.

To TBJ, even though Joe and I have disagreed w/ you on just about everything, and you insulted Joe in every way imaginable w/o even knowing him (me as well but not to same extent), we're not going to hate on you, mainly because as professional poker players for many years, we understand (believe it or not) the variance of playing for a living and it seems you're down on your luck and you were venting (unnecessarily, and on the wrong guy). Actually these last thoughts are mine...I haven't spoken to Joe so idk how he feels, although he may harbor more resentment than me given that you attacked him.

Finally as a fellow poker player, as part of a community that usually tends to look out for one another and help the game grow (and actually warns others about real scams), I just ask that you refrain from using the term scam, loosely or not, especially when describing Joe (or anybody else that doesn't deserve it). You're welcome to critique others including Joe and me, call us donkeys or whatever, tell others not to buy our mu's, as long as the justification is there, and not because you're venting due to beats in poker and life.

Isn't there a difference between "JT is a scammer" and "JT selling at 1.2 in a Bellagio WPT is scamming"?

I think it's quite clear TBJ has made the distinction, and I don't think he has any qualms with Joe's integrity, character etc. He just thinks Joe is an ignorant idiot and is being a pretty big ass about it.

A lot of people have been quick to defend against Joe's "Idiocy" and character, and rightly so. I think he's a good player, and a lot of well respected players do as well. I also think if he had integrity issues we'd probably have heard of them by now considering he's been a pro for 10 or whatever years. Joe's pretty justified about being upset about the vitriol of TBJ's attack and while I understand being upset about the questioning of his character realize that it's just a semantics debate that anyone reading this thread can understand. Nobody is reading this thread and is thinking "Wow Joe is a scumbag that I wouldn't trust and yay Bear Jew!" if anything they're thinking "Wow Joe is a clown and The Bear Jew is an *******" and I don't think either person really cares about the latter.

However, what not a lot of people are doing, especially those familiar with the marketplace, is defending Joe's selling of 1.2 markup in a WPT Bellagio event. 2p2's marketplace is a community where people buy pieces from each other at a fair price. This isn't craigslist, and if you've read the marketplace rules you'd realize this. Every bad investment is a loss towards a future good investment. This is bad for all of us and it is good that TBJ will sometimes go off on someone and make light of this. He especially goes off on the huge packages/buyins and rightly so as they can take away the most value from the marketplace. This obviously sucks for Joe as he is being singled out but at least he appears to have a good life and family and appears to be set for a good while so it's hard to feel too bad for him. These tourneys are very difficult and quite short stacked at the end and while Joe may be a great player TBJ has shed some light on what could possibly be huge leaks in his short stack game and has highlighted why this is a very bad investment in his opinion. Is he right? I don't know but he usually is and if the end result of all of this is Joe improving his short stack game and TBJ protecting the marketplace that's not so bad now is it?

no one gives a **** about that. This thread is about a HU4ROLLZ challenge. That post can be placed in the other thread