Yeah I love joe, he's seriously such a great dude from my experiences with him. TBJ you are usually spot on and always hilarious, but i think you're barking up the wrong tree here... pretty ridiculous to call someone scummy for charging a high mark up. I've heard your stance on the marketplace and while I agree the mu some people charge is absurd, i won't go as far as to call them scummy.

Sup action bob?

and if being arrogant is wrong, i don't wanna be right. (and i know you don't either)

Whoever wrote this, can you please sign your posts so we can identify you easily? Thanks.

Pghfan987

lol

Just want to say I've played with Joe a couple times and hung out with him once, he's a super nice guy and from what I've seen a good player. He's also come into this thread and responded in as classy a manner as you can expect given the abuse he's taking

Yes, the K6hh hand was played badly; we can stove it, run the numbers on CEV and $EV and surmize it was a bad play. But who's to say that Joe T doesn't do a bunch of things well over the course of the tournament that tons of forum regs in here would miss? PGHFan coming in and acting like it was an insult to the game of poker that Joe would call there is just ridiculous.

The live pro in me knows that someone like Joe who plays exclusively live is almost certainly gonna pick up on some nuanced stuff in the early levels that guys in here would never noticed. Stealth, I know you've played a lot of live so maybe this applies less to you

But after this latest Stealth rant (and I normally do like your rants) I'm starting to agree with DFish about the state of these forums. If all we're gonna do when someone makes a play we disagree with is attack their personal character, mock them, humiliate them, just to feel better about ourselves, it defeats the purpose of this forum and tears the community into cliques essentially. I've obviously done it myself; I'm sure we're all guilty of this.

Stealth -- I like your posts because you are honest and you don't hold back...not to mention you are a talented poker thinker... but the whole "everyone's luckier than me" thing is getting old, especially when it involves berating good people

A little more this:




And a little less this:



Equals more this:

If you market yourself as a good investment at a high markup because of your results and then play a tourney where other people have literally more money invested in it than you do yourself, and this is all you have to say about plays you make at the FT for hundreds of thousands of dollars of equity of other peoples money who think they are investing in a good poker player, a poker champion!.....then I have a problem with that!

Play kissass and buddy buddy all you want. Guy lit thousands of dollars of marketplace money on fire in this tourney....hard to argue that......guy can be mother ****ing theresa for all i care.....he should scam outside of 2p2....i'm sure there are a lot of live idiots willing to buy packages at markup he offers.

And everyone is luckier than me....and most people play a lot worse than me. I'm sorry if that is getting old to you guys. Believe me, its getting old to me...I would say I hope I win a million dollars playing terribly/sucking out, but I don't get the opportunity to suck out as often as players like Joe do, because I like to get my money in good, not just you know, "40% to make 130k, took a shot to take a gamble" or w/e.

Think about the markup he could charge a naive investor if this thread didn't happen...he's not only a NAPT/WPT champion but recently got 3rd in the TOUGH FIELDS AT THE EPIC POKER TOURNAMENT. (Forgot to mention he's an EPIC POKER PLAYERHIMSELF!!!!!*****)

Remember the good old days? I guess 2p2 only likes troll on troll violence.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87...l#post20924611

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...l#post19578153

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...l#post17901719

Now I am kinda pissed that I didn't get scammed :/ Would have loved to pay half his buy-ins and get 2 mirrion in return.

Anyway, one rule always apply: do not invest in somebody that uses CAPITAL LETTERS IN AN ONLINE FORUM. THEY TILT EASILY AND OVERESTIMATE THEMSELVES OFTEN.

_________________

Exactly my problem as well, I'm scared money too

JCHAK, I have no clue who you are, but this is amazing, kudos.

And Stealthmunk, while I (like most) find almost everything you post to be pretty much spot on and usually consist of what most people are thinking but won't actually come out and say (Pussies), but I think its pretty ridiculous that you basically think people should only sell action at a fair rate, and not try to make business minded decisions, which is pretty silly since we are professionals here, Joe included (who I think is a super nice guy). If I could sell action for a 100k buyin at 3:1, I doubt I'd turn it down and say "I don't think you are getting a great deal here." And I don't think anyone else here would either.

I mean, I just disagree.

I assume a lot of people disagree too.

But w/e, don't need to debate this point ITT. I've debated this in threads in the past/marketplace rants and everything thats needed to be said has been said.

You'd have to give more details to the situation, but if you ever ended up in a 100k buyin selling at 3:1 markup odds are you are a piece of **** scumbag.

Maybe if some gambooler rich dude offers could you accept a sick deal but putting up an Alex Bolotin WSOP style thread is pretty scummy. This situation is a little stranger because in the marketplace anybody selling anything at 1.3 or less is considered ethical as long as they're not freerolling and almost anyone selling anything over that or freerolling gets berated by randos. But assuming Alex Bolotin has 50% expected ROI in the WSOP 6 max(which he tried to sell at 2:1) and Tehan is expected to be -20% here its the same thing. I have no idea how close these numbers are to reality but they seem at least possible.

In poker we know we're all at least a little delusional about our skill so it is impossible to prove that someone knows they're being scummy when they have a sick ROI in the past. I may well have sold some -EV shares in the past unintentionally as well as made some dumb posts so I can't condemn Tehan here.

Disagree emphatically. But of course breaking down that argument requires understanding the motivation of the sale. Pursuing the action (SCAM) is a lot different from being, say, gifted the action by your fiancee's billionaire dad. And even then I'd still explain to mr. billionaire that he's lighting money on fire, and I would offer alternatives that give him at least a 0ev gamble.

Back on OP I think Russo made a good play min reraising instead of shoving she was hoping someone would come over the top like Tehan did. She just got pretty unlucky but the shove with AA utg is weird.

This has been discussed, but normally flatting is more likely to induce action and give the impression she might fold to a 3-bet. When she makes that minreraise, it looks exactly like what it is, QQ+. Only a maniac would think this was a good place to isolate light. Pushing should look weaker than the minireraise. It might have been a good play if she had a read that Tehan might try this. Her play is not as bad as the other two players anyway.

As far as Tehan selling shares at a markup, he had a high ROI. People were willing to pay it. He probably thought that was a fair price. Also, I am sure the people who bought the shares aren't complaining. There are plenty of overpriced stocks. Caveat emptor.

So you guys are telling me if some rich guy you played cash games with offered you some sick staking deal that was clearly -ev for him, you would try to negotiate something more fair? Sorry but if thats the case I am in the other boat, and I hope that doesn't make me a scumbag. I do think it would be kinda scummy for a losing player with no results to try to sell action claiming to be +EV or something shady like that, but this is not even the case with Joe.

You think its kinda scummy for a losing player w/ no results to sell action claiming to be +EV, but you think its fine to accept a deal knowing you are clearly -EV?

I think your'e wrong, but you are entitled to your opinion even though I think you are just playing devil's advocate to make a weak argument in support of what JT did.

You aren't being logical, but whatever. Defend Joe Tehan all you want. If I invested in some guy and paid markup for this said poker player, and he went on to play like JT did, and then talk about his play like he did after that, then I'd feel like I was scammed and I would warn every single person I know not to be scammed in the same way I was.

Who cares about results? He won a WPT in 2006 and got lucky in a couple other tourneys? I'm sure he was +EV in the WPT in 2006 just because he was aggressive button masher and that was good enough back then. To take that and sell at 1.2 or more in the current state of WPT fields / Epic Poker fields..scam. When called out for being an idiot scammer, he said he's trying to not go broke and doesn't play many tourneys anymore.

(Also bragged about 500k in buyins and 4mill in cashes)

**** this guy. Just because you had a good time hanging out with him one time doesn't make what he did right.

I think you misunderstood me perhaps. I was suggesting that if for example some billionaire offered me some sick deal like 3:1 markup in some random tournament that I am certainly +EV in but unable to quantify my exact ROI in that specific tournament, I see no reason not to take it.
And fwiw, I never even said I hung out with Joe, and I actually haven't. I think the interview/his analysis of the hand is completely absurd just like you do. However, I think if someone says "hey this guy just won a big tourney, is probably running hot, and may or may not be a big winner in the Epic tourney, but I want some action and I'm willing to pay x:x", I think that is totally within reason.

Maybe I'm way off?

Either way, moar love, less h8 IMO.

C'mon Clayton, let's be real, I seriously doubt anyone you know would turn down this deal from their billionaire father-in-law!

Unless you are a Randist it's unethical if you are knowingly selling action to someone when you know it is a bad deal. I don't think Tehan think it's is a bad deal, because like everyone he think he's is better at poker than he is. I'm pretty sure it is a bad deal because Tehan like 20% of the hands I saw Tehan show down he played objectively terribly.

Nah you didn't say that you specifically said 3:1 in a 100k tournament in which obviously you are implying you are -EV...but nice back tracking.
Yes, it would be fine to take 3:1 markup in a random soft live tourney or WSOP then thats fine. I'd take it. I think my ROI in some east coast tourneys is an ASTRONOMICAL number...but thats also running good in table draws....as even in the softest tourneys usually by the end at least half the table has a clue....long gone are the days of completely dominating a FT full of complete fish.

You aren't that "way off" but just like Joe is able to sell himself I should be able to sell against Joe. I should be able to sell stocks of Joe at 1.3 if I wanted to and whatnot. But I can't. Joe should buy himself at 1-1 if he's selling at 1.3 or some people should...etc.....but its just a joke market and he's a joke player.

Thats different. If the father-in-law was knowingly well off and giving you a gift then thats fine and you can accept it.

If you're friends w/ a billionaire and he's knowingly burning money to help you out then its fine.

However, to mislead him into thinking he's not burning as much money as he is, no matter how much $ he has is scummy.

You want it to be one way, but its the other way.

Investors are not stupid, most people know that poker players will overestimate their ability and still want to buy a piece anyway... Many extremely intelligent wealthy people live for making super -EV investments with large sums of money; Vegas was built on this principle. Do you think Phil Ivey or any of the other thousands of pit game ballers don't know how -EV craps, black jack or any of the pit games are? Of course they know, yet every day smart people put millions of dollars in action fully knowing of their negative expected outcome; the reason: the visceral thrill of ending up on the right side of short term variance. Are all these people stupid? Are casinos scummy scam artists because they offer -EV games to people? No. Some people just like, and can afford, action and the casinos are willing to give it.

If some dude with a lot of money wants to freeroll you in a tourney and give you half the profits just for the thrill sweating someone they know who's been there before and has the opportunity to enter into an invite only tournament, how is that scummy? How is that bad for the poker scene? I mean Guy L. alone is responsible for getting innumerable poker players repaid by freerolling Chino when not many other people would invest. How is that bad? Who got scammed? Just because something may be -EV doesn't make it a scam any more than playing a hand of blackjack, betting a chunk on black or betting the bonus on Pai Gow.

I'm pretty sure Tehan has sort of alluded in his posts here that he's knowingly -EV and in interviews.

He says he just "throws chips around" and doesn't know how many BBs a shove is when the shove was <20bbs when everyone that is great at mtts probably knows there exact ranges/cut off for a shove of 10-11-12..etc. to 20bb and whatnot as its mostly a math problem and theres no excuse other than being a lazy degenerate to not know at least the equilibrium ranges in spots like that...

Joe however can't be bothered to even know how many BBs. He just "took a shot took a gamble at making 130k" He's a ****ing moron. It really is that simple.

Anyone defending him needs to take a step back and read what nonsense this guy is saying, realize he sought out investors at a markup on THIS forum from OUR peers.

Have we really gotten to the point ITT that people are arguing billionaires can't be scammed when giving terrible deals?

It doesn't even ****ing matter. HE SCAMMED OUT 2P2ERS AND UNLESS THERE IS SOME BILLIONAIRES GRINDING THE MARKETPLACE THAT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT, THEN STOP ****ING TALKING ABOUT THIS ABSURD, STUPID HYPOTHETICAL, THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT THE ETHICS OF.

Someone I'm talking to on AIM:
"if i can steal a million dollars without getting caught
i'd do it
but it doesn't make it ethical"

This just seems to be missing the point (not to mention the tactics casinos employ to encourage random people-most of whom don't understand how -ev the gambling they're doing is-to spend money they can't afford are certainly scummy).

This is a community. Everyone knows that people will overestimate their edge and therefore some people's markup will be too high. I'm sure most investors know that some people will intentionally put their markup too high and they invest anyway. I'm sure some investors would buy action that is -ev even if they know that for sure the purchase is -ev. None of this makes it okay to knowingly sell action that is -ev for investors.

I'm not sure why SM is so sure this guy is scamming people, though. Sure seems like he legit thinks he's a good investment and +ev in these tournaments at these markups. I think it's great that SM is pointing out that it's a bad investment but I don't understand the need to be so disrespectful.

In conclusion, JCHAK is way off above but dead on below, imo.