Calling is awful, fold is standard

I don't see problems with flatting. The only situation that troubles me is when BB follows by shoving, and OR calls. When this happens I start trying to talk myself into believing OR is calling with big-ace hands in order to justify shoving over top of him and making a HUGE pot with my 44 due to fantasies about having an edge that likely isn't there. =)

TBH though, more often than not either the BB folds/calls and we can comfortably set mine given stacks, or BB shoves and OR folds which we can then call profitably. Is this logic off?

Why is calling so awful?

BB will probably be shoving here some reasonably high % of the time, with the overlay of our call giving him an attractive price on his shove. We can never continue when he shoves if the OR does anything

If BB folds, we have a barely acceptable, though still not very attractive setmine situation.

BB calling is the best result for us, but it should happen rarely if he is competent, and even when it does, him being so short relative to the size of the pot hurts our implied odds

Because you check/fold everytime?

If some guy was super weak/passive/weird like he'd raise a fair % of hands, but only bet the flop if he has it. Always would fold check back hands to double barrle etc Sure you could call. But chances are you do not have this read

Can someone explain why we can't call if BB shoves? I'm assuming because 44 is flipping vs a 30% range?

I understand the logic being that we can't cuz of risk OR calls or shoves overtop. I guess I just don't see this happening as often as others do.

if bb shoves and opener folds we can call. that won't ever be an issue because it's an easy fold the first time.

Could one argue, against particular opponents in the BB, that BB shoving and OR folding is a better result than when we are set mining when hero calls and BB calls? Could someone play with numbers and see what our EV is with blinds/antes/bets in both scenarios? Tough a bit because of the difficulty calculating implied odds in the set mining option I suppose.

fold.

Don't shove. Gambo or not it's up to you.

fold or 3bet/fold. maybe call like 1-2 pct of the time.

Fold seems like only play. Don't see how calling or pushing are profitable. Seems like an awful situaiton to 3b/fold. You are OOP and hand plays badly postflop and has no blockers.

shove against action from the CO and later. Now fold

Thanks for all the input guys, i think i like folding a lot more now.
The end result was that i decided to 3bet with the intention of calling the shorty allin if the OR fold which is obv.

BB folded and OR flat (yuck)
flop was Kxxr, i cbet he flat, turn was j i barrelled again and he shoved.
sigh, fold.

Should've just folded in the first place :P