villian is 17/12 3b 6.6 cbet 44(32 spots) over 1.1k hands
flatter is 14/6 over 120 hands
i played pretty tightish, didn't show weak cards at showdown

what are your thoughts on all streets ?

fold pre, think our call range should be pretty narrow, mostly consisting of midpprs-(QQ), think AKo can call sometimes here too.
As played, bet flop. Call otr

Pre is fine being this deep. Snap Call River, I'm not gonna hero fold a spot where he's basically only rapping quads. His 55 and 99 hands are never checking this flop.

If by fine, you mean -ev, ok

Seems too optimistic to raise but I don't see why he can't put us on AJ-AQ and bet AK this way. Or maybe bluff.

With 35x behind and getting 3:1 pre it seems absurd to fold here, why do you think this hand is unplayable ampefund?

the fact that he has only 44% cbet over a big sample makes me think that he slowplays his monsters a big percent of the time.
i don't know what hands does he think will call his bet on the river.

LE: soepgroente do we usually check behind 3way AQ, AJ on the flop ? if we have an A it's usually small A suited which we sometimes bet the flop.

It only matters whether he thinks you do. A lot of players check behind some % of Ax here for sure. But basically, if you think he never bluffs and doesn't valuebet AK you fold, if you think he can bluff and/or can valuebet AK you have a very easy call.

Just think vs a 14/6 and 14/10 and with as much as people pc at this level and depth, jus dont think we are getting paid enough when we hit. Dont think its a massive leak, and its binary enough where playability is pretty easy. Jus dont think we can flat and overcall pprs in all situations if we can see 15:1+ in stacks

Well, then we bluff sometimes. And show down our 22 as a winner sometimes when they both have ace high.

Because they're tight this makes a call more profitable IMO. They have premium hands, and I guarantee you they are putting a lot of money in with TP or over pairs.

This is an argument in favor of calling pre, not against.

River should be a call like always, he definitely bets AQ+ for value. Yeah we're beat sometimes, but whatever. I can see his range having bluffs and worse for value and 22 is like the top of the range we get to the river like this with and we block nothing at all. I don't see this being a fold ever.

Its not like we r hu sitting otb or in the bb. Still have 5 players left to act behind from ep/mp. dont think current scenario has same effect on our impodds and when multiway our ability to sd or exploit ip is diminished. Would think this is a better 3b pre than a call. But if u can show +ev playing 22 this way, more power to you.

Pre seems fine. On the river I'm not very happy about calling, I think we are beat way too often than we should be, and on a rainbow board it's not absurd for him to have other sets too. I'm not saying it's a fold, I think it's nearly impossible to fold in-game, but in reality people just have it here way too often.

AQ or AK is "having it" on this board the way it was played

I kinda disagree, I think it's pretty greedy to overpot it with AQ/AK given hero doesn't have many worse aces (flop check, I don't think AJo/ATo always flat pre, and they definitely don't always checkback flop). Plus hero has a nit image, so I'm not sure what he's expecting to get value from. I think he's quite polarized here, and I also think he's going to have the nutted end of his range here way too often than he should. Interested to see results tho

agree with Chuck Bass so far.
so preflop is debatable but what do you think about raising the turn ?

i personally don't have a bluff range with this line especially 3way, ck back flop raise turn on such a dry flop.

Tried to say "way more often" on both accounts there, not sure how I typoed the same thing in two different posts

I think turn raise is theoretically bad but could be good in practice, people will level themselves into calling down because they are semi-capped etc. I think it's one of those lines that are actually best (in MTTs against unknowns), but that Doug Polk would make fun of.

In terms of H actually checking them back, given V description, he should. In terms of what V expects H to do, checking back AJ and our suited Ax is logical and generally anticipated.

This is online, nit image probably doesn't mean much. OP isn't a nit on my hud.

Yes, of course he is, AK and probably AQ are part of the value polarized range, imo. PR12 might not even have 55 in his utg+1 rfi.


Dunno how relevant it is since it's a one-off and that doesn't show a lot about V's range in this spot.

Fold pre. Pretty horrible hand this deep three way, especially if you are not floating flops versus checks (pretty horrible hand to float with too).

As played, it absolutely does not matter what "he thinks we have". It's a terrible ******ed mentality that a lot of mtt regs have that include words like "dynamics" (based on 25 hands you played with this person at a live table), "how he perceives us", etc., instead of basing your decisions on math, game theory software, ranges, etc.

Where in reality most mtt players underbluff rivers and telegraph their hand strength with sizings. In a cash game that would be a call because how high we are in our range given the action (although you should not be there with 22 to begin with). But in mtts 2x river overbet on a superdry board when ace pairs after our turn call seems like a range of 55/99, I guess he had 99 given the positions.

BIG RIVER BET in mtts = pack your bags and get the fk out there versus 95% of the field.

Don't know how we fold pretty much the toppest of our range here. We are severely underrepped and our range has a lot more Ax than boats. V should, at least sometimes, have AK/AQ for value that you beat, but I think this is a sigh call and lose pretty often to 99/AA. If he does have 99 the flop check kinda sucks.

I love Mad1lee posts - he spouts off aggressive opinions with 100% certainty......you should be in sales my friend

Alexo, I think your viewpoint is closer to how people should play, and my viewpoint is closer to how these random 17/12 people actually play. I'd be super surprised if he showed up with AQ/AK. People just don't play it that way. I'd say we are crushed like 80% of the time, and the next most likely option is something turned into a bluff. I'd still probably call and never learn ingame.

Huh? Almost any result would be interesting in some way, except 99/55. If he has JT, A5, AQ, AA or many other hands it would all tell us something.

Villain is pretty tight, but why isn't he playing AK/AQ the same way here, and overbetting the river for what he thinks is value against our range, which includes many more Ax hands? If villain is indeed this tight, 55 may not be in his range, nor will A9, A5 or A2 be. OP has the third nuts, behind exactly AA and 99 with only one way to make AA.

I don't think this is a fold.

BTW, I entirely agree with Mad's point that MTT players very much underbluff the river. I call here, but not based on bluff percentages; rather, on the idea that villain is betting this for value with some hands I beat.

More generally, this board uses "horrible" and "awful" and "LOL" and "never shows up with" far too often. There are significant debates on many hands around here, which suggests to me these absolutisms are rarely if ever correct.