villain is unknow for me, he was opening kinda a lot folding to 3bets (tho couple of those got cold 4bets or were shoves) i had ok tight image... couple hands before this i 3bet from SB AA vs btn and he 4bet AI with A5s and chop the pot,
- he never 4bet before this so thats why i decide to just call preflop (thoughts ok or we should just 5bet shove)??
- he insta ch flop and turn, do we bet somewhere F or T (if yes how much) and do we b/c or b/f

PokerStars - $200+$15|4000/8000 Ante 800 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

zizinhooo (BB): 250,223 (VPIP: 15.48, PFR: 14.00, 3Bet Preflop: 8.47, Hands: 158)
Pendos90 (UTG): 200,018 (VPIP: 26.38, PFR: 19.91, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 237)
surfstar33 (UTG+1): 340,335 (VPIP: 21.76, PFR: 19.31, 3Bet Preflop: 9.38, Hands: 343)
ILIOS72 (MP): 196,850 (VPIP: 16.13, PFR: 14.21, 3Bet Preflop: 6.85, Hands: 721)
Re8uZ (MP+1): 365,526
FourSixFour (CO): 244,667 (VPIP: 16.20, PFR: 9.77, 3Bet Preflop: 5.13, Hands: 181)
mandza17 (BTN): 88,120 (VPIP: 19.93, PFR: 13.81, 3Bet Preflop: 4.26, Hands: 588)
SamuelBT (SB): 254,309 (VPIP: 23.60, PFR: 20.08, 3Bet Preflop: 10.42, Hands: 1,068)

8 players post ante of 800, SamuelBT posts SB 4,000, zizinhooo posts BB 8,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 18,400) Re8uZ has K A

fold, surfstar33 raises to 16,000, fold, Re8uZ raises to 36,320, fold, fold, fold, fold, surfstar33 raises to 78,444, Re8uZ calls 42,124

Flop: (175,288, 2 players) 4 5 Q
surfstar33 checks, Re8uZ checks

Turn: (175,288, 2 players) 9
surfstar33 checks, [color=red]Re8uZ ????

Pre: Shove

Flop: b/gii.

As played, bet 100k'ish turn, you are pot committed.

Better play would be to just shove turn. But that makes our hand more or less face up and might get called by 66, 77, 88, TT, JJ. Maybe not, maybe he won't risk it all.

His hand looks a lot like AK here.

Result?

calling is fine with AKs since we are IP and dominate a lot of his 4bet bluffing range, would jam AKo though.

Flop what did you check? trivial b/gii flop, pot is 170k and we got like 260k effective behind, bet like 55k and jam most turns.

Pre I would also consider flatting the first vs EP opens with semi deep stack and also considering the stacks behind

Yep

what we r beating if he c/r ai on flop when we bet, i think we r crushed vs his ch/rAI range and i dont think he is folding much better hands that ours on that flop so why we should bet after he check?

We beat 67s and hands like J8hh T7hh T9hh etc

that he just decide from blue sky to 4bet them pre 35++bb deep at #30 left in sunday major <3 #makesense

easy flop bet/gii......

I don't think it makes a ton of sense to 3bet AK pre if your plan isn't to shove over a 4bet, but suited I guess a flat is ok too. As played we have the easiest bet/call ever. As played I guess we check back turn and hope he shut down with a worse ace high or something.

3b or flat pre is image/dynamics related - id you have an aggro/loose image then 3b otherwise just flat.

OP grats for shipping scoop 30 M!

I don't think in general people is gonna c/jam this flop that often enough for us about to be worried about our hand getting crushed,

KK/AA is most likely going to cbet this flop, and QQ is going to cbet, if not, check calling, and with KQ/QJ he is always check calling, so the only hand that beat you that c/jam this flop is AQ and we still have 47% equity for that which is enough for us to call the jam.

It doesn't matter if you fold out hand you beat, you wouldn't want to give some hand like A3s a free card. Hence protecting our hands from villain realizing his equity

And we always have some slowplay KK/AA to protect our b/c range.

Get it in pre. As played, jam on flop.

Flat pre or 3bet to 5/gii don't like your line unless villain 4bet bluffs too much and even then 5bet is usually better unless 4bet bluffing range has lots of Ax and KQ type hands.

As played bet/call flop. Even just folding out hands like AKo is worth a good amount of equity. it doesn't matter too much that he only continues w hands >50% equity when spr is so low and hands you are ahead of still have a lot of equity against you.

As played turn is interesting I think check>shove>bet/call but I'm not too sure if you have sdv and could see arguments for all 3 lines actually.

i dont think he is is always betting QQ+ with that SPR as played preflop (i know i'm not) and he can have like 44/55 too so i agree that we r not going to get c/r ai a ton here but i think he is ether c/rai or ch/f the problem with betting geting in on flop is that we r never geting in ahead and best we can hope is like AQ type of hand that i think will cbet more often then he will c bet QQ+ on this board with that action pre, also if we i have AA/KK i will check behind as played pre here most of the time cos we have stacks for 2 streets max, and if he we had him beat with our AK he has max 3 outs so thats like 6% that we r giving him free look at so its not that big deal, and if he ch turn again we can check again or bet (depending what is turn) and he can/will fold all air but be in hard spot with hands like JJ/TT imo

i also agree that in vacum best line is 5bet AI pre but i decide to flat cos tho villain was opening loose he was folding to 3 bets (some of those 3bets got cold 4bet ai tbh) and this was first time him to 4bet plus he was playing from EP so his range should be like top range + some Ax, KQ combos that we had crushed and cos we were deep i decide to flat and play in position

ty

I mean, i like your logic, but with 35BB effective i think it´s an easy 5bet jamm, cuz now we´re in a weird spot/****ty SPR, much deeper i´ll flat tho.
As played, i think if we bet turn, gotta prepare to shove most rivers and hope he folds TT/JJ

yea as i said i agree that best in vacuum is to 5bet AI pre, but my read this time was that i should deviate from "standard" and call and see what happens post

if we bet turn what sizing??????????

66555 should do it

and?? if he shove??? if he call ???

Like i said above, if we bet (checking can´t be that bad), and he calls, we should shove most rivers, right? What´s the point of betting turn if we gonna check river? We gotta make him fold that TT/JJ
Yeah, sometimes his gonna have QQ+, but do you think he checks twice with 2 FD´s out there?
I know you´re a great player (congratz on that SCOOP btw), but we should have a plan postflop, once we flat the 4bet, right?
If we shove the first time, we wouldn´t be in this ****ty spot now

yea agree that if we bet turn we need to barel river too to make him fold AK/JJ/TT type of hands even he might hero fold Qx stuff but i think if r beting turn we should go with smaler sizing to look like induce/value and make him not fell commited and just shove turn (cos we can't actualy call cos we r dont geting odds to call of vs his range if we bet like 50-80k, and if we bet biger we need to call but is kinda crying pot odds call)and then we can barell bigish(shove) on river so ithink best sizng will be like 20% pot here smth like 25-40k max cos it looks stronger we r looseng less if he shove and we can put presure on river too with AI which will be like 80-90% pot

If you think he can have 44 and 55. You should bet and get it in on the flop.

You really butchered this hand.

It's not really about what are we beating, it's that betting is really +EV and way better than checking and our hand has so much equity that it shouldn't be folded when shoved on. We have 2 overs and the nut flush draw. We wouldn't call all in with 98dd on 762dd because we think we're "beating" a lot of hands; we'd do it because our equity is so great. This is the same idea.

I thought about this hand for days now and what is the most optimal play (as played), so i think i like checking turn again (i´m not results oriented), so we can realize our EQ and second, just don´t see him go crazy deep in a Sunday major and start cliking buttons, so i expect him to adapt/change gears by opening a tighter range (unless his bad an retarted), but then i remembered i don´t play on .com so what do i know
And yeah, i started to experiment plays like this, by making really small bets in 3bet/4bet pots, but then i get raised or shoved on and level myself to much hahaha

@redsoxnets5 its try that we have eq vs reasobable range and thats cev, but in mtts chips win r not always = as chips lost, so given action pre villain range is tighter and although we r geting "right price" to bet/call if villain shove the truth is that given action pre our hand and board vilain dont have much if any draws in his range and his range are hands that he is traping like aq, sets, kk+ and is not great spot to get it in with our stack this late in mtt imo

@outplayu27 agree that checking aggain is reasonable and good option cos we can realize eq(which we have plenty) not risk our mtt life and even if we dont hit on river we can bet some rivers and make him decide