Lol a3 is totally fine to limp here and obviously not a fold to an ISO.

My argument was with your stating that A3o was a top 35% hand based some chart that is based on value allin preflop. My point is you have to look at how a hand plays postflop, not allin preflop. A3o is at best an average hand to have in this situation. I wasn't trolling, just pointing out absurd interpretation of software results.

It is a marginal situation here, and you may be right that limp/call is better than any other line. Limp/fold is sort of ridiculous if BB is raising most of the time.









l

Please show me where I ever said anything about aipf (I didn't)
You just pulled that argument out of your arse in a misguided attempt at trolling me
You also mentioned that you "learned a3o off plays poorly in limit holdem"
Again refer to section j of my response to your half ass troll attempt and you can see what you are trying to accomplish by defending vs the raise?
Its not a marginal situation at all tbh
There was no absurd interpretation by me just you looking at the numbers I posted looking for a hole in my argument. When you thought you had something the lump of mush in your brain that is dedicated to poker said drool wtf is going on right now and equated it to some all in scenario that you made up out of pure air
The point is that in the sb in a spot where you limp your whole range (yes betgo this is a common strategy in ante games) it is absurd to fold a hand in the top 35% of your pf range * again refer to section j as to why you defend here
You are all concerned w post flop playability when if you win the pot 5/10 times out of 100 you have already beat folding. Quite sure a3o will accomplish this quite easily vs the range that bb will be raising here (basically anything that resembles a strong hand) j8s k9s 79s k10o qjo
I have answered all your comments and broken down your arguement and basically stomped it to pieces
Time for you to answer my previous question? Do you even play hsmtt w any degree of regularity? When was the last time you played more than 10k hands at anything past 50nl?

You didn't say anything about aipf. The hand ranking you got from the software was based on aipf. If I am opening a 35% range, it is not including A3o. I wasn't trolling you, just pointing to the absurdity of blindly using software hand rankings.

It is a marginal situation, because you are playing a hand that doesn't play well OOP without initiative. I am OK with limp/call, as opposed to the alternatives.

It is also not true that you will win the pot half the time when you limp/call or that if you win it half the time, you necessarily make a profit over folding. You are OOP with a hand that is hard to make a big hand with, so you tend to lose bigger pots than you win.

Wow what a discussion, im loving it, till now i feel like the way im playing, im on lolposting side, but still i need some more opinions from different really good poker geniouses who can confirm these arguments.

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You still not answering to lolposting2016 question

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Right above ^
Not the greatest explanation/strategy breakdown, but still.

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Agree w/ lolposting that A3o is a trivial limp/call vs this sizing, except vs the most rare of players whose raising range is so tight that calling A3o does not give you direct odds even taking to account being out of position.

I still think you need to check the turn and allow villain to choose his sizing or check back. You're in an awkward spot where you're probably close to where you want to show this down.

It comes down to how you construct your turn lead range with the Ah x and how often (if ever) you limp with Axh. That said I don't think your line is that bad simply because you connect with this board a bit stronger when you decide to put all of your money in, and you are capable of being balanced here. Furthermore most villains won't just jam the turn very light, allowing you to run your river bluff frequently or value bet when you make 2 pair/ trips/ flush.

^^ 0/3

a) no. heres an example
qjs
Hand Rank: Top 7.08%
Hand Rank: 16 of 169

who is ahead aipf? a3o or qjs

b)there are only 2 choices here. call or fold. so yea obviously. you are not trying to "turn a profit" or "make a big hand" you are trying to improve over folding. look at how much is in the pot and how much you need to call to try and realize your equity...

c) you dont need to win the pot even close to half the time, where did you get this number?

d) still waiting for an answer from question in last two responses to your posts

e) you do realize that literally every single point you have made in your posts itt have been wildly incorrect with not a shred of good advice being contained within them?

The software you are using is basing its rankings on aipf against a random hand, as I explained. A3o is ahead aipf against QJs. However, against a random hand, QJs is 60% and A3o is 55%. 98s is 51% against a random hand. Your software probably ranks A3o as better than 98s. However, 98s is a much better hand to open with than A3o.

I said, limp/call is probably OK, but marginal. It isn't just whether to call or fold when raised. It is also possible to r/f or open fold, which of course aren't great either.

Obviously, the problem with A3o is you make ace high, TPNK, 3rd pair, or a weak draw most of the time. The hands you mentioned villain could raise with, j8s k9s 79s k10o qjo, are better for making TPGK, straights, flushes, good draws and so on. Villain also has all top 20% hands in his range.

I got the number half the time from you, who said it was a profitable call if you win the pot 5/10 times. You were saying if you won the hand half the time, it was profitable, but, as I explained before, the pots you lose will be bigger on average than those you win, because you are OOP with a hand like this that plays poorly postflop.

ok bud. gl. keep on doing what you do.
(not playing poker really ever for any meaningful stakes and coaching noobs who have no clue that you have no clue wat your talking about)

Where are other top players and analysts? Somebody who is really qualified to end this discussion with a solution? The more i read the more i get confused and cant decide myself what's the best move here.

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^ hot cold equity etc, can't be news

Considering this, I think raise/fold or open fold would be better with A3o against someone who is raising the majority of the time. Limp/fold is good against a more passive BB. It is fine if you can see a flop cheap, but limp/calling and putting in like 3xBB preflop and playing this hand OOP is probably not good.

First time u talk about who u are playing against with this hand and now it makes sense. So in generall if u dont know ur opponent u will be playing this hand hm with a raise but if u know ur opponent u can then adjust with r/f...

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If you raise A3o you probably have very little Ax in your limp/call range. Open fold wat

every time u post it becomes more and more clear u have no idea wat ur talking about

"I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!"

Also here doug polks RFI range:

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^ this is for non ante games. the antes are a big deal and rfi in this spot doesnt accomplish much vs anyone w a clue since they will be defending like close to 100%
thats why limping 100% has become popular from the sb and now you can start to split your range into limp/call - limp raise your v strong hands and limp fold the very bottom worst hands

I may not be that good at what your ranges should be here. My main point is that A3o is not anywhere near a top 35% hand whatever the software says. I would rather have most suited gappers for example. I am not sure why there was such a big argument over this point, which I thought was obvious.

The reason I suggested r/f is that A3o plays really badly against the hands that would 3b for value, and which mostly dominate it. You also would probably get some junk hands to fold. I don't see why you have play your whole range the same way, limp or raise.

I don't understand why if you don't limp/call A3o, you won't have many aces in your limp/call range. You are too deep to gii with most aces, so I would think you would limp/call most aces, assuming you are limping most or all of your range.

If you are limp/folding A3o you won't have many aces in your limp call range because you would be limp/folding way too many offsuit combos to a BB 3x, roughly 3/4 of your weakish Ax range. When you choose a limp heavy SB range here you'll be obviously limp/folding, limp calling and limp reraising with a higher overall frequency of limp calling.

If your opponent is raising your limp let's say 20% of the time somewhat balanced, A3o is going to have ridiculously good direct equity to limp/call, and when he checks behind you are going to be at a roughly equal range. That's why your post about choosing to open fold A3o for half a BB more is laughable.

Your argument seems to be that you're going to get into some ugly spots by the river on Axx boards etc if your opponent goes bet bet bet. However, think about how infrequently the board will come Axx when you both are holding Ax, in which case your range may be something like A2o-ATo, A2-A9s and his is all Ax he chooses to raise with.

Yes you are in serious trouble when that happens, but it isn't something that loses enough long term equity to justify limp folding to the raise size preflop. Lots of times the hand will go check-bet-call on flops then get checked down, or you will c/f on bad boards, depending on your read of opponent's raising range. Sometimes it will come Axx and you will outflop his JTs-KQ or 22-KK and he will try to barrel you off, so you gain equity there. There's just lots of arguments for playing this hand this way instead of worrying about the "worst case scenario" which mathematically is only going to happen maybe 2% of the time out of every 100 hands you play vs the BB in this spot.

I got in a lot of trouble before commenting on stuff here, and I am not expert on the details of the ranges.

However, A3o is your 2nd weakest ace, so I don't see how if you limp/fold it you have to limp/fold a lot of aces. People think it is stronger than it is in this situation based on software simulations of pushbots or resteals or whatever that assume that you are called by a strong range. You have 1% or so extra win chances allin due to wheel possibilities. This makes it appear that A3o is better than A6o. Also, deep, the combination of wheel and nut flush draws makes A3s maybe better than A6s.

Here, most competent BBs are raising a wide range as mentioned. So they will have many hands with low cards in there range. This means that you can lose hands with a pair of 6s against a pair of 3s or against an ace with a slightly higher kicker. So A3o in this situation is worse than A5o or A6o, and significantly worse than A8o.

I still can't believe there is a discussion here. Listen to lissistinkt at least, he knows a good deal about mtts. Limp calling is just lolbad.

mad ^ so your telling me that you cant improve on -100bb/100 winrate that limp/folding gives you with this hand vs the range bb will be raising here?
guys you will always lose money from the sb the idea is to try and improve ur wr as best u can
this hand a3 off with have easily 25-50% equity vs the range that bb will be raising here, sb strategy will just be to c/c a decent amount and do your best to realize it
how your saying defeding here is lol bad shows some real misunderstanding about how the ranges will interact here in this particular spot and how sb should be constructing ranges when employing a 100% limp strategy