215 SCOOP 6 MAX vs George Lind - Page 3 - High Stakes MTT Strategy

TStar II · 05-24-2012, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oojoe24oo

what you fail to understand is its a 215 against a rando - obviously against another good reg george would fold a set in this spot, but hero is a random....too lazy to read the rest of your essay

Seems to me like he's be far more likely to fold vs a random than another good play. There should be next to no bluffs in your range by jamming the river here and it just relies on villain being a good enough player to fold sets which he surely is.

OMGClayDol · 05-24-2012, 05:25 AM

lol oojoe i promise you that you should read his "essay". whilst it may be advanced, he is 100% correct and that's valuable free advice, which is fairly rare, that you can learn from there. it's also explained pretty well and put simple.

DudeImBetter · 05-24-2012, 07:52 AM

Think we need to be raising OTT (even OTF) of Hand #2 for value and/or information. Folding is too weak with information given, and calling is too passive in this spot. Hero has chips to use for a raise OTT, and villain has enough chips to make call/fold/raise all playable options depending on holding. Raising just seems right for many reasons in this spot.

J_HasTheNuts · 05-24-2012, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oojoe24oo

what you fail to understand is its a 215 against a rando - obviously against another good reg george would fold a set in this spot, but hero is a random....too lazy to read the rest of your essay

You're doing it wrong.

bigdog6391 · 05-24-2012, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

dude, your mixing up your points of view so it's hard to keep up with and answer your questions. Your talking about a hypothetical bluff range and a hypothetical value range in the same breath without really breaking them down, comprehending our answers, and understanding them.

He was responding to you being in villians shoes and hypothetically being able to beat a value range that had some twopairs in it, with a set, thus justifying the call. He was pointing out that this is incorrect thinking, because a river checkraise would be way too thin for value with twopair, against this action. Any competent handreading reg would come to this conclusion.

****************

Now you are talking about ATo... which is a completely different subset of heroes range (strait bluffs) and requires a different line of thinking. The reasons for ATo being in our range here are pretty similar to those of AQo, and I tried to address it here:

Jorj is a smart guy so you need to give him credit for at least this much thought. If you check/jammed river his hand is a bluffcatcher, it just is, and he knows this. This is the most important thing that I feel you are not getting because the absolute strength of both hands in play, particularly his hand, makes this hard to understand at first glance.

***He has a bluffcatcher, he knows this.***

Once we have established this very important point, now we just hope that our assumptions are correct with regard to how he thinks we would weigh our value/bluff ratio in this spot. A reasonable assumption is that he will expect us to almost never be bluffing, especially if we don't stand out versus him.

Heroes line in OP including a checkraise all in on river is perfectly consistent with:
Nut flushes, and
X amount of "bluffs."

If he doesn't expect you to be able to pull the trigger on the river, as very few are able (especially unknowns), then this spot is really good to Jam in, as he would expect "X" to be almost nonexistant.

If you are known to him, then it gets a little more complicated and less awesome as you can't take advantage of the anonymity, and default reads that he is likely to make.

more of this please

oojoe24oo · 05-24-2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStar II

Seems to me like he's be far more likely to fold vs a random than another good play. There should be next to no bluffs in your range by jamming the river here and it just relies on villain being a good enough player to fold sets which he surely is.

The issue is this is a 215 scoop with tons of satty entrants and hero in the hand is a random with who knows what kind of OPR.....you expect randos to never raise AT here? I mean George has no clue whether the villan is even a winner.....furthermore its hard to get to the river with a flush - there's like 8 possible combos I could think of......I'd be more inclined to make this move if we're viewed as a good reg - granted George could think we're turning a value hand into a bluff but if would have to be at a very high frequency to justify calling.

Maybe this is real close though - I haven't stoved it or written down every flush draw combo possible, so I'm sure someone could have the numbers down.

Andrew Boccia · 05-24-2012, 07:43 PM

you've still got it backwards, and your still saying the same thing over and over while ignoring the counterpoints to your statements

Quote:

Originally Posted by oojoe24oo

you expect randos to never raise AT here?

that's correct, I don't know how many ways there are to say this.

OMGClayDol · 05-24-2012, 08:29 PM

even if you wanna be really nit picky, you can maybe say a random will raise it at most say 25% of the time, if that's the case it still isn't enough to make this a call for villain assuming he thinks we are never bluffing.

IntenseDawg · 05-24-2012, 09:01 PM

Andrew's advice is pretty spot on here, I'm surprised he's even giving away free advice like this.

George Lind III · 05-24-2012, 10:56 PM

good thread, i have no idea what i had in either hand but really enjoying the responses, especially andrew's.

ty71087 · 05-24-2012, 11:17 PM

hope you learned a thing or two about your own understanding

ebet33 · 05-25-2012, 10:27 PM

Jeez aboccia is pwning this thread. Very good posts and think Igot a little better at pokerz

ebet33 · 05-25-2012, 10:32 PM

[QUOTE=An additional point to make, theoretically we should be floating this flop way more often with backdoor nutflushdraw combos of top pair and way less often or never with offsuit aces (like what we have) so if we always bluff when we have the blocker it will still be very seldom as long as you are not floating this flop everytime you get raised and have top pair. If you did get stubborn on this flop and try to get your hand to showdown, you should take advantage of this bluff spot.[/QUOTE]

Good stuff here

doublesu1ted · 05-26-2012, 12:30 AM

probably fold the flop on hand 1, not sure if i would shove river as played though.
hand 2 i either fold turn like you did or call down, can;t fold river if you call there. but i like the fold option here, JJ-AA hits to much of his range for me to call 2 more streets with.