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Old 06-15-2012, 12:42 PM   #1
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$1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

Blinds are 100 /200 /25
Folded round to cutoff who is solid but extremely laggy. He makes it 650 and I 3 bet to 1800 with AJo . Flop is j 8 10 with 2 clubs. He checks and I bet 3k and he reraises to 7 , I tank a while and move all in for 4k more . I was ahead but Los the hand after the turn , wondering if I played the hand poorly , I won't post what villain had yet .
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:53 PM   #2
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

I like your play. Sorry for the tough break.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:03 PM   #3
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

with such a wet board.... i dunno if it's such a good idea to get pot committed with top top so early in the tournament.
While it might be the right move technically, I been there done that and lost it a million times.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:13 PM   #4
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

I don't like it, its super early in the tournament and you got it all in with 1 pair on a wet board.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:34 PM   #5
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

I think once you 3-bet, you have to get allin on this flop with an spr of less than 3.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:07 PM   #6
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

Yeah... after you 3-bet you're not getting away from top pair with your SPR (or if you are it's bad IMO). Could always just call in position pre... not saying the 3-bet is bad or anything, but it's obviously much more volatile than flatting and will put you in this sort of spot frequently.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:14 PM   #7
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

i didnt really LIKE getting it in on this board to be honest but villain was hyper-laggy and i wasn't prepared to play the hand on his terms so i decided to take a more aggressive line against him CO v Button .

How should i have played the hand better ? I didn't like flatting knowing i could take it down pre with a 3 bet since he's opening pretty wide in position . I started the hand with about 11k .
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:22 PM   #8
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

IMO you played fine, and when you 3-bet this sort of player (or actually almost any sort of player) and flop tptk with a low SPR, you have to put the money in.

You say you didn't like flatting knowing you could take it down pre with a 3-bet. I wasn't there/don't know firsthand how villain plays... but often loose players like you're describing don't fold much to 3-bets. Did you have some reason to think he would usually fold to your 3-bet? I would generally expect (given the information you provided) that villain would call 3-bet with most of his raising range. Then you play a big pot in position and probably still ahead of his range. There are worse fates :-)... and, like I said, I don't mind the 3-bet, but it does definitely increase volatility... so this sort of situation happens a lot post, which is also okay.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:29 PM   #9
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

villain opened almost every single time it was folded to him in postion and yeah he didnt really like folding to 3 bets but probably did fold to 3 bets pre about 1/3rd of the time . Either way my image was pretty tight at that point and my 3 bet should have seemed strong and I was quite happy to keep playing pots against this villain in position because i felt I had an edge over him . Thanks for all the replies guys ! I guess I see that its not so bad but not so good too and probably quite a volatile spot for such a large buyin tourney . I didnt want to let the nature of the tournament affect my decisions or allow more experienced players run over me so i decided to play the hand this way ( villain 4 bet twice with big hands oop ) . My decision to get in in the on the flop was kind of based on SPR but also mostly because I didn't think he played his 2pair/set hands this way , he seemed more inclined to slowplay such hands on a J high board rather than put in a raise here .
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Old 06-18-2012, 01:46 AM   #10
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

Quote:
Originally Posted by nutupshutup View Post
....I didnt want to let the nature of the tournament affect my decisions...
Tournament structures vary. Strategy should be adjusted accordingly. What they all have in common is that, in the early stages, chips are not as valuable as is survival.
For instance. Starting stack is 7,500.

End of Level 3:
A) You have 12,000
B) You have 5,000.
C) You're at the bar suckin down a beer..

There's not a lot of difference between A and B. A could become B (and vice versa) in just one hand. Either one offers you a chance to make it up to, and beyond, the $$$.

But there's a world of difference between A~B and C. C can never become A or B.
C has zero value. Do your best to avoid C.
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:03 PM   #11
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeschmoe View Post
Tournament structures vary. Strategy should be adjusted accordingly. What they all have in common is that, in the early stages, chips are not as valuable as is survival.
For instance. Starting stack is 7,500.

End of Level 3:
A) You have 12,000
B) You have 5,000.
C) You're at the bar suckin down a beer..

There's not a lot of difference between A and B. A could become B (and vice versa) in just one hand. Either one offers you a chance to make it up to, and beyond, the $$$.

But there's a world of difference between A~B and C. C can never become A or B.
C has zero value. Do your best to avoid C.
thank you for one of the simplest yet best answers i've seen . I think i could definitely be more profitable if i tried to survive later in tourneys rather than get into big pots early on .
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:33 PM   #12
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

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Originally Posted by nutupshutup View Post
thank you for one of the simplest yet best answers i've seen . I think i could definitely be more profitable if i tried to survive later in tourneys rather than get into big pots early on .
And thank you. After re-reading my post, I was afraid you might take it like I was talking down to you. I mean it sounded kinda... what's the word.. patronizing?

Most tournament players do not place the greatest value on simple survival. To do so forces a person to occasionally make decisions that are less than optimally correct and decisions that are definitely -ev in the long run.

I prefer to view a tournament as a short term thing.. isolated and distinctly separated from my past and future poker "career". This attitude allows me more freedom to consider making unconventional moves when the situation demands it.
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:18 PM   #13
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

nah its cool i liked your post , its simple and effective and to the point . well sometimes i guess that happens to me as well i dont play to survive ... waaaaay too aggro
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:06 PM   #14
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

Flat pre. Play smaller pots, by 3betting you make this person fold A9, A8 J10 KJ sometimes and you dominate all those types of hands and would like to play in position vs them postflop with deeper stacks.

More importantly, what is he going to do vs 3bets? Does he 4bet light? Does he 4bet with hands like A10 A9, or only ever call with those? If he's only ever 4betting JJ 1010 KK AA AK etc and bluffs, then you're making a mistake by 3betting AJ here.

Study up on game theory, hope it helps.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:42 PM   #15
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Re: $1400 red dragon cup hand I busted

I wouldn't 3b this hand. Part of the problem with it is you probably have to fold to a 4b. If villain isn't 4-betting light that much, you don't mind folding to a 4b often from hands that dominate AJ. You probably don't have the dynamics to get allin with AJo.

Better to 3b 98s or something, which is an easy fold or 5b/fold to a 4b, is misrepresented, doesn't mind playing against a strong range, and makes draws you can semibluff with representing JJ+ or AK.

3b isn't terrible. I wouldn't worry about playing a big pot and sometimes busting out.
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