Yugo's SS and Basketball Log - Page 84

Montecore · 07-16-2012, 04:28 PM

I'm not sure TM is better than 5/3/1 in general, but the program I set up for myself seems better right now for me than 5/3/1 would be.

I looked at 5/3/1 and TM when I was trying to figure out which program to switch to, and TM (at least the variant I looked at) seemed to have the mix right mix of stuff for me (there's a discussion of what I'm doing in my log). I like moving to the volume and intensity days for both upper and lower, and I like getting back to the heavy upper body assistance work that I was doing in my bro days (cg bench press, heavy weighted dips, etc). 5/3/1 looked pretty elegant to me, what with the 5x10 assistance exercises , but I respond better to heavier assistance work (I expect most would if the goal is to get stronger, but can't say definitively).

As someone who was once the hardest of hard gainers, what got my upper body lifts strong was eating a metric ****ton of food and doing a buttload of heavy upper body work multiple times a week. It just comes down to the fact that if you want to lift heavy weight, lift some heavy weights.

Soulman · 07-16-2012, 06:18 PM

FWIW I think 5/3/1 4 days a week with 2 upper body days with plenty of assistance (close-grip bench, incline bench, dips, chins etc etc) should work plenty fine for upper body. Wendler specifically says to throw more assistance work on for upper body days, which seems to jive well with my experience as well. I'll get way more sore doing squats and DLs then bench and press, upper body can take more volume (depending on the lifts performed ldo). Also seems like a good mix for strength and hyperbrophy.

The Yugoslavian · 07-16-2012, 06:30 PM

Hmmmm, well maybe I should go ahead and figure out what my 5/3/1 alternative to Smolov Jr + 5/3/1 would be given that I want to bump up upper body lift volume and weights a ton.

And then put that up for feedback of whether it seems better than Smolov Jr and like something that should produce results for me.

Soulman · 07-16-2012, 06:36 PM

The "simplest strength template" or whatever from 2nd ed looks like a good way to start. Though some of the TM stuff seems like it might be better from a pure strength perspective due to probably lower rep ranges.

00Snitch · 07-16-2012, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Yugoslavian

What is the basis for your opinion that TM > smolov > 5/3/1 for upper body lifts? It seems like you're saying it completely subjectively, which is fine, but if there are compelling reasons for it, I'm not wedded to any specific approach. I realize I have to figure this stuff out for myself b/c what I've been doing isn't really working obv.

I went with 5/3/1 for mainly the following reasons (in order of how appealing they were to me):

- I was really mentally struggling with SS and the unrealistic expectations it set for me. I constantly felt like a huge failure b/c I couldn't move up in weight and often when I did, my form would go to **** or I'd fail a set accidentally and then have to drop back down to regroup. A lot of this was mental, but I think part of the reason it happened is that I never really kept gaining on SS like it lays out. My intention was to milk it for a long time b/c many posters seemed to say "I could have done SS for even longer". If I had to do it over again I would have done greyskull or w/e that other beginning option is just b/c SS didn't seem great for me.

- I could maintain 5/3/1 or modify it for years if I wanted to. I liked the idea of a long-term fundamental program I could just stick with and switch out accessory work. My understand of TM is it's recommended primarily as a stepping stone from SS to ???.

- B/c TM is recommended primarily as a stepping stone from SS, and I didn't really like SS programming. Churning out a 3rd rep, when it feels really really hard and you *have* to get 5 reps was just a huge mind**** for me. It was super hard to do those challenging reps. OTOH, doing a 5 rep set where I only *need* to get 1 rep is so much better. I still feel like a failure when I look at my lift totals and whatever, but when I get to a tough 3rd rep, I can keep going and if I don't hit the 8 reps I wanted ideally, no big deal as long as I could be improving month to month.

- I obtained an ebook copy of 5/3/1 first.

Also, just anecdotally but I really don't remember reading anything about TM that made it seem especially good for upper body lifts. What makes you think it's better than smolov or 5/3/1? Tbh the main drawbacks I heard about 5/3/1 were that my squat may not improve much, and that following some of the "suggested" (Wendler kind of suggests things he doesn't even really recommend imo) assistance should probably be ignored (leg press, leg extensions).

If it seemed to me that TM >> 5/3/1 for upper body lifts that would have been very compelling imo so if that was mentioned or I had read about that I really think I would have noticed.

I would stick with 5/3/1 then and add 60lbs to your OHP in a year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulman

FWIW I think 5/3/1 4 days a week with 2 upper body days with plenty of assistance (close-grip bench, incline bench, dips, chins etc etc) should work plenty fine for upper body. Wendler specifically says to throw more assistance work on for upper body days, which seems to jive well with my experience as well. I'll get way more sore doing squats and DLs then bench and press, upper body can take more volume (depending on the lifts performed ldo). Also seems like a good mix for strength and hyperbrophy.

I think I agree with all of this. 5/3/1 buddies for lyfe!?!?!

Aidan · 07-16-2012, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Yugoslavian

Aidan - 5/3/1 on a slight deficit seems fine afaik so far. Maybe if I did 4 days a week it'd be different? Or didn't do a deload week? I dno, I'm quite happy with my DL progress so far and my squat progress seems fine too considering it's already my "best" lift. Tbh I think I maybe should be best at DLing, I just had to completely rebuild my form twice to learn how to tighten my back and not lift with my back parallel to the floor.

I just think it is suboptimal from a gains perspective. You're going to spend three weeks working the hell out of just one lift, and you want to see the most progression you can from that three week period. To that end you are going to need to eat to make it worthwhile over a slow and steady all lifts approach. Doing it on a cut seems counterproductive, and even more so if you factor in the additional risk of injury/soreness.

I agree with Montecore: add in some more intense accessory work, whether you take a base 5/3/1 or TM approach.

The Yugoslavian · 07-16-2012, 09:07 PM

SM - Hmm....I don't have the 2nd edition of 5/3/1 so I'm not sure what that template is but I'll look into it.

Snitch - Yeah, I want to stick with 5/3/1 but I mean, my OHP literally hasn't budged at all and I'm in cycle 3....and it was already so far behind.

Aidan - Yeah, I agree with that. But I'm cutting damnit! lol. I figured I'd likely just end up eating a small surplus during those 3 weeks anyway but keep trying to stick to a slow cut atm.

Ok, now I'm sold on giving 5/3/1 another cycle for sure if I can find an assistance plan that is OHP-centric. Maybe run it by other intermediates and then maybe get Busto's and G4S' opinion since they are huge OHP monsters.

The Yugoslavian · 07-16-2012, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00Snitch

I would stick with 5/3/1 then and add 60lbs to your OHP in a year.

Btw, this sounds great imo. Hard to believe that could happen when I've added, I dno, only 30lbs to it in over a year having never OHPed before.

But, if you think this is actually realistic if I tweak my programming of 5/3/1. I def don't want to move from 5/3/1. I actually really like it

.

00Snitch · 07-16-2012, 09:22 PM

All this sh*t seems so whimsical to me. Especially on 5/3/1 and especially over short time frames (like 3-6 months).

My press (and bench for that matter) is on a heater lately (lolol poker analogies). My programming is simply 5/3/1 for press/bench with 3x10 dips, chins, pendlays and press for assistance once per week.

I've got no idea what is making it (them both) go up. It just seems like sometimes some things click. I think this is probably the case all the way through intermediate lifting - especially if you're someone like me who doesn't particularly study form a lot... Sometimes you just luckbox the right form and sh*t happens like magic.

This is all very useless information for you - I'm just rambling.

The Yugoslavian · 07-16-2012, 09:27 PM

Meh, couldn't obtain it the way I wanted to. Probably should just buy the hardcover version 2nd edition, eh?

The Yugoslavian · 07-19-2012, 12:21 PM

7/18 log

LBBS week 2, cycle 3 (target 298)

187.5x3
215x3
242.5x8 (301 - PR): Ran out of breath but was GMing a bit after rep 4 or 5 tbh. The last rep apparently went up pretty "easily" my g/f said but I remember barely being able to catch my breath before it and am not sure my upper back was as tight as ideal.

Very happy with the effort and results though.

RDL
145x6
145x8
145x8
185x6
205x5 - These were pretty tough and I had to use mixed grip. Not an all-out effort, but prepping for next month when I'll treat these more similarly to a main lift.

Split squats
bwx10x5 - good lord my quads were burning. My "bad leg" was having some nerve impingement issues afterwards a bit so I know I was pushing them quite a bit after those heavy squats.

Ab wheel:
bwx6x3
bwx7
bwx9

G/f did (169 target)

107.5x3
122.5x3
137.5x9 (177 tied her est. 1rm PR) - She mentioned a tweak she felt near her left knee before squatting but it didn't seem to bother her much on the squats. She's still twisting the bar to the left on heavy squats bit it seems a bit better.

She is for sure a machine...there was some GMing but she got 9 reps and she thought she wouldn't.

RDL
75x8x4
80x8x1

Plank
15lbsx15secx5

cha59 · 07-19-2012, 01:16 PM

Nice work!

re - mixed grip RDLs, dont you have straps? I dont like worrying about grip at all when I do RDLs. Form is very important (and tough to do right) for RDLs. Anything that is remotely tough double overhand - I just put the straps on. Anything over ~55% of my 1RM DL gets strapped when I do RDLs. Save grip work for DLs from the floor and other stuff imo. You want to focus on everything else when RDLing, and using mixed grip throws me off just a bit.

Montecore · 07-19-2012, 01:30 PM

Very nice squats Yugo, am I correct that you are making good progress on these while on 5/3/1?

The Yugoslavian · 07-19-2012, 03:16 PM

Cha - Yeah I for sure have those awesome straps....but I forgot them yesterday so mixed grip it was!

. Emily was asking about that b/c she was like "but don't we either do double overhand or straps on this?" And I had to concede yes, and say what you just said for the thinking behind it. But my plan was to move some heavier RDLs and I wasn't gonna wait just for straps. Mixed grip was fine imo but yeah, straps every time I remember them is better.

Montecore - Yeah, my squats have progressed in-line with the 10lbs increases each month essentially and my DL is outpacing that by quite a bit. It's the damn upper body stuff that literally hasn't budged so far during almost 3 cycles of it.

I knew on SS they weren't budgeting, but then I got injuries, and then I was "building back up" but starting 5/3/1 I really, honestly expected my upper body lifts to go up without much trouble as long as I made sure to focus on them and go hard.

Montecore · 07-19-2012, 03:25 PM

Yugo --

Understood.

I just restarted doing RDLs again and even really light weight gave me some major DOMS. Hopefully it will shore up my posterior chain a bit.

Have you settled on the upper body program that Busto suggested?