+1

I've found the cardio numbers to be way way off too. I just store my own recipe and meals info for quick retrieval. Set it up once, and done.

YTF isn't reporting any sweet cravings, so its a pretty small rock at the moment.

Caffeine has some appetite suppressant properties, and research on artificial sweeteners affecting appetite is quite mixed.

Agreed on the last statement, and he probably should work to reducing the intake in the longer term. For now, getting calories in order is #1, #2 and #3 on the list. Too many other changes could derail that.

Can you cite where you came to this belief that "many people" share? Lets try to focus on actual science if we're going to make claims.

No epistemology or rat studies please. Self-reporting should probably be excluded as well.

I'll start with a study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19221011
And a meta-review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22093544

Either way your conclusion is correct.

This is getting absurd. Can you please wait till I finish my pubmed searches to chime in?

tyty

we can take turns

Hrm. Wonder what that means.

It also doesn't address gut flora, but lol rats I guess.

It also doesn't address psychological responses and the concerns about fooling the brain. I don't remember which thread I posted in about this, but the studies went both ways and the jury is still out.

I also agree that ytf has bigger fish to fry, but if decreasing sucralose load will positively affect his gut flora and/or reduce psychological triggers for sweets (assuming that he is a "healthy human" and therefore has no physiological stimulation as addressed in the study with a sample size of 7), and there is basically zero downside to quitting the diet coke habit (so long as he doesn't do something so idiotic as start replacing it with fruit juices), it is a freeroll.

What am I missing?

I really did not mean to derail like this...

Lets look at your two arguments:

1) gut flora - No evidence in humans.
2) psychological triggers - You cite no evidence to counter the meta-review.

So why exactly would he bother to change at all? He his happy with his routine and hasn't reported any sugar/carb cravings (the most pertinent sample size of one). Senseless change is mentally taxing and distracts from the core problem.

Also, what illness have you armchair diagnosed him with and please provide the relevant backing for why you believe artificial sweeteners are not appropriate for people with his "sickness". (We'll ignore the repeated claims by him that he has been to a doctor and is free from metabolic illness, since your argument is obviously absurd and I merely want to highlight the absurdity of it.)

My argument that quitting the sucralose is a freeroll no matter which studies are correct is absurd??

Do you own a sucralose manufacturing plant or something?

How can there be "zero downside" to quitting a habit that ytf greatly enjoys when it hasn't been proven that there is any great reason to?

It's a flawed premise that this is a freeroll, because you're recommending that someone give something up for maybe nothing.

Why don't you address any of my questions about evidence instead of resorting to strawmans?

I can't believe: 1) I'm agreeing with LKJ 2) that I'm defending a monstrous consumption of diet soda.

YTF's biggest problem is he consumes too many calories. He has a psychological problem with food. People continually harp on "baby steps", compliance/adherence, sustainable changes, etc. The idea is that he slowly modifies his lifestyle to one HE CAN LIVE WITH.

I guess YTF can PM me if he doesn't want me to post (or ask publicly). But its pretty likely that he's gotten silly advice throughout the years that is completely unsubstantiated and difficult to adhere to. Well meaning (but unknowing) posters are continuing this trend in this thread.

This is what I posted in the other thread:

As for his routine, it is only a few days old and now seems like a pretty good time for change. If you read his other thread he felt like an Auschwitz prisoner when he didn't eat. Now he is cruising with 2000 calories +/- and feeling great.

As for the doctor, he has repeatedly said that he doesn't have insurance and doesn't go to the doctor except for cortisone shots in his knees twice in the last 5 years. He hasn't had any bloodwork done that I can recall him ever having mentioned.

I armchair diagnosed him with obesity.

Now seems like exactly the time to change habits that he enjoy that might be bad for him. I'm not strongly suggesting or screaming from the rooftops, and I don't understand why you guys are. I just want what is best for ytf. I've never proclaimed to be an expert. So far as I can tell, neither have any of you except for chim17. He says caffeine good diet soda neutral.

You can go ahead and shout at me again, I'm really not that invested in this discussion. I'm not even sufficiently invested to do further research/googling. Fine, sucralose doesn't affect insulin production in healthy humans. I never said it did.

Sorry for my part in this derail. I've said my piece and don't wish to engage further.

No, no others throughout the day.

No, I don't crave sweets at all throughout the day. Never have. Sometimes, after dinner, I could go for a sweet dessert, but that's something I just have to say "no" to right now, and it hasn't even been slightly difficult. If I absolutely HAVE to have dessert, a banana has been doing the job just fine so far.

I don't get the shakes when surrounded by candy bars in the checkout aisle. "Craving sweets" has NEVER been a problem for me my entire life, and like I say, I've been drinking Diet Coke for a LONG time.

The only issue I've ever had with it was if I had too much in a day, the caffeine made it tough to get to sleep at night. A long time ago, I stopped drinking it after lunch, and for years now, that changed from lunch to breakfast.

It's a non-issue, boys, we can drop it.

So... no scientific consensus? As a fellow obese person who is struggling with developing a sustainable lifestyle (and seems to have been since 2004), I figured you would be more aware of the illusion of short term ease. Maybe after he loses 100lbs (which would leave him still obese) then he can worry about making meaningful changes that may have some benefit. Right now he's making changes that are by far the most beneficial. Later on we can quibble whether he should be eating more fibrous fruits and veggies, right now its pretty clear that if he simply eats a plate of meatballs, he's making huge progress from eating 2 plates.

The biggest reason to switch from diet soda is the lack of micronutrition. There are meaningfully better substitutes, but no where do you even acknowledge this. Instead you focus on rat science and selective bias in which studies you cite.

NB: There is something I'm trying to explain tactfully to YTF that you're clearly missing. When you give him bad advice, you detract from the more obvious mistakes/problems/etc.

Since that tangent has been ostensibly addressed, YTF, I'm curious what your approach to the activity/expenditure part of the equation has been and will be.

Well, that's good info. The other concern is craving the "fullness" you get from guzzling all that cola in the morning. If you don't see that as a problem, by all means, keep chuggin' that cola and I'll drop it.

Coffee really is better though -- and I say that as someone who enjoys a cola from time to time.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Can you elaborate? Be gentle.

fwiw I'm no longer struggling. I have been following a doctor recommended diet for over a year without much trouble since I feel 18954392x better than I did before. I'm also no longer technically obese and at my current rate I won't be overweight anymore by BMI measure sometime over the coming winter.


If I did anything of the sort I apologize. It wasn't intentional.

Because anyone who reverts back to their old habits has not made a sustainable lifestyle change. We're trying to make YTF eat differently FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. FOREVER. UNTIL HE DIES. OR LEARNS TO LIVE FOREVER.

But really, anyone who yoyos without intent (like if I fulk/cut), has clearly ****ed up the sustainability part.

ytf,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVjWPclrWVY

Someone linked that to me.

<3 Leigh Peele. Chatter thread can keep all their steroided out women.

Historically, I've knocked myself silly doing cardio every time I've tried to lose weight. I was shocked--shocked!--to learn this week that this is wrong, too.

Of course, the first step has to be walking. No, I haven't started yet. I figure if I can drop dozens (scores?) of pounds without it, I should do that, to lighten the load on my knees for when I do begin. I went out for a 45-min walk a few weeks ago, my knees were sore for a week. I can deal with muscle soreness, but joint soreness is a whole different matter--one is good for you, one is bad for you.

Currently, I've got about a five-minute walk from the employee parking lot to work (all the close spots are for the customers, the employees are parked on the outskirts of the huge property), and that's pretty much the only walking I do right now.

But don't worry, exercise is addicting, and once I get started, I never have any trouble keeping it going.

I'm also considering bicycling. The area I live in has bicycle paths EVERYWHERE, on every street, plus great off-road trails, can't wait to check 'em out. I've posted earlier in the week how bicycling might affect my knees, but haven't got a reply, so I guess the only way to find out is to mount up.

Ytf,

My advice would be to make sure you have enough variety to keep yourself on track.

That was one mistake of my first diet. You get sick of eating the same things, then you go for a taste of something else, then another, and another, and soon you are blowing what you worked months for.

Clearly for your lunch you don't always have to have a chicken salad. If you are enjoying the salad, by all means. Maybe mix it up with salmon instead of chicken, or even lean steak.

One thing I learned is that variety helps it feel like much less of a chore and you can satisfy different cravings that way.

walking: it's important to start slow. right now you're walking 2x5min / day, so maybe add a nother 10min walk in the evening 3x / week. if you have no problem with this, up it little by little every week (duration as well as frequency).
can't comment if it's smart to start already or if it's better to wait some. personally, i'd start now and stop if you have any pain (despite keeping distance really short).

biking should be fine, so is swimming. (here as well: start slow and take it easy)

Can I suggest walking in a pool?

Beautiful YTF. Just beautiful. No mayo is not just about the calories, its about a way of life. You show me a human who holds the mayo, and that's a human that's trying to make changes in their diet. It means their diet is not 100% crap. Congratulations on taking the big step.

However, you show me someone who doesn't get spicy chipotle mayo and well that doesn't mean anything. Spicy chipotle mayo is delicious and its rare to find so its okay to eat.

But seriously, those BK grilled chicken sandwiches can be pretty dry without mayo. You may want to find your own little packets of dressing for them. Maybe get some Cholula little packets or rasberry vinagraitte packets or a myriad of options that are better than mayo but still give the sandwich a little more taste.

Also, you may want to leave the McDonalds and Burger King in the dust. I find it really hard to get decent stuff over there. I heard some guy Jared swears by Subway. Lots more veggie options and high fiber bread.

This is a pretty good idea if you can get around to it, both physically and psychologically

Subway bread is the nut low. Also raspberry vinaigrette might have more calories than a packet of mayo.

Definitely start walking slow. In a pool or even in some knee high water sounds like the right idea.