Yeah, I guess it's just a whole different world for me... but 2000 cal seems fine.

Like OPs last log, he had three decent looking meals for ~1700 cal. He can still have a beer with dinner or his ice-cream and come in at 2000cal. It's not like 2000cal is a "suck it up fatty" diet. It's not like you're depriving yourself of "treats" and stuff, you're just not eating ridiculous foods.

A conservative estimate for maintenance calories is 11 to 12 calories per pound of bodyweight. This puts YTF's maintenance at 4200 to 4500.

2000 might seem fine to you, but that would put YTF at a projected loss of 4.5 to 5 pounds per week. Given his past problems with hunger issues, most likely leading to binges and other unhealthy practices, it's much better imo that he sticks with 2700 if that satisfies him and keeps him from falling off the plan. This still puts him on a projected loss pace of 2 to 3 pounds per week, which is even a tad higher than a lot of people seem to think is healthy.

IMO he should stick with 2700 for about a month and see what kind of results he gets, then adjust accordingly.

Nice start, keep it up. And yeah, bread is terrible in terms of calories versus hunger satisfaction.

Any extra movement yet? Like changes in your diet it doesn't have to be much to start - at your weight myfitnesspal figures that you'll burn something like 10-12 extra calories per minute of walking, so even a few minutes a day will make a difference over the course of a week or month. It's not a big deal imo if the answer is "not yet", but it will provide a nice boost. In your shoes I would not overdo it to start - not only will it be hard on your body but it's entirely possible that burning a lot of extra calories will make you a lot hungrier.

hurdur broscience but when I eat that not-so-tasty whole wheat, whole grain bread with tons of fiber it fills me up a LOT more than the regular stuff. I can eat an entire box of cereal pretty easily.

Also, don't get discouraged if/when things slow down, that's all part of it. gl2u

Yeah, I for one am surprised at everyone saying that bread isn't filling. I always think whole wheat bread goes a long way to curing my hunger.

Bread can be filling but it's so delicious that I can just nom my way through 1000 calories of it without even thinking. I'm guessing OP could too. Probably for the best that OP is reducing his bread intake (although I wouldn't cut it out completely because that will just make you want it SO MUCH MORE).

Ytf,

Try not to be too concerned with the scale right now. Especially at your size, variation from water weight and other factors may overshadow the weight loss numbers for a bit, but that doesn't mean you're not losing weight. Also, be sure to measure yourself in as consistent a manner possible. You don't want some measurements all hungry and dehydrated and others full of food and diet cokes.

I'm just going to have to ignore this thread because it's too tilting. OP - you're just discovering what thousands and thousands of other fatties have figured out at one time or another - that your motivation for eating was not hunger. You should know this because you can control your hunger very reasonably by eating 30-40% fewer calories than you're used to so obv something besides actual hunger drove you.

What you're probably going to ignore is the psychology behind why you actually were eating that way and how to change those pathologic thought processes. And that's why so many people fail. Check out Tom Venuto's Body Fat Solution. It's pretty darn good. Try to ignore the noise in this thread but take the encouragement, because the mechanics of dieting are really damn simple (simple, not easy ). You'll do fine with that. It's a process, I understand that a lot better than most here and your first steps are going to be proving to yourself that you can consistently lose weight. Build that confidence!! Just don't forget to retrain your mind. That's what will see you through those ****ty, stressful days and intermittent slip ups.

Bookmark this post for when the romance wears off, you hit a wall, you want to give up, or anything else negative. Read it. Remind yourself why you are doing this- for yourself. And your Johnson.

CAUTION: Psychobabble post.

I always figured psychology probably had a lot to do with it.

I've never had problems with drugs or alcohol, but my gambling was SUPER-self-destructive in my younger days. Then I moved to Las Vegas, and after just a few weeks it was clear to me, "I need help with this." Luckily, I was such a simple, textbook case that a $2 booklet put out by GA was all the help I needed. It spelled out why I wanted to lose all my money, and why I couldn't sleep after huge wins (because I'd been told my whole life that gamblers always lose, so seeing that idea reinforced made me feel smart, and seeing that idea turned on its head by a winning night was very upsetting psychologically).

I don't eat candy bars. The only time I ever do, historically, is when I start dieting and start making progress. Why then? It was obviously as self-destructive as the gambling was. I wrote it off as my body craving the sugar that I was burning, but always wondered if it was psychological, instead.

My parents' house came with a big 1-acre yard, a small barn, and a large henhouse. The animals are long-gone now, the corral dismantled. My brother tore down the barn and built a small 2BR house on the foundation. Inspired, my other brother, who uses the old henhouse as a workshop, fixed up a corner of it into a very nice little bachelor's apartment. IOW, they now both live in my mother's backyard.

The "barn" brother used to be fat like me, but he went all Adkins in his mid-30's and looks great now, but listen to this: he won't go in my mother's house! They get along fine, but my Italian mother is constantly cooking and baking, the cookie jars are full and on prominent display, every time you step foot in her house you immediately think, "Mmmm, something smells DELICIOUS!" The only way he can avoid the temptation is to stay out of her house. When he "has" to come in (like when I fly home to visit) he makes sure he's either just eaten, or has plans to eat immediately afterwards, so that he can sit there and not eat what the rest of us are enjoying--"enjoying" being the key word!

The "henhouse" brother is the oldest, and he feels more of a sense of obligation to help out his elderly mother, so he's in her house every day (think of Tony Soprano and his mother if you need help on this "obligation" thing). He's never had trouble with his weight, outside of the more typical, "Oops, my pants are getting a little tight, might have to try to knock off 5-10 pounds." But he has spent years complaining that every time he's trying to lose weight, she's making him the greasiest, fattiest (and irresistibly delicious) foods for dinner and dessert.

Every other psyche problem I've ever self-diagnosed starts with the way I was raised (the sick gambling thing; why I used to choke at sports I was good at and fail at school, which is a whole other story, but it comes down to class warfare and jealousy and the way successful people were scorned in our house instead of admired--which was why I could easily run the first eight balls on the table but turned into Tin Cup when I had an easy shot on the nine-ball, or why the smartest kid in his class wouldn't do his homework), so I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to learn the psychological reasons for this disorder as well.

I *will* pick up that book (the positive reviews on Amazon are overwhelming). Thanks.

And thanks to everyone else, too, for the unbelievable support I've been getting here, it just blows me away.

I think that book is in the FAQ. A few of us (AB, myself) have given it pretty ringing endorsements. Easily worth the cost.

ytf- you are kicking ass, and the best part is it seems like this hasn't been *that* hard for you. You aren't suffering like you thought you would and are doing a great job.

Just hope you stick with it even if you don't get immediate results, there's a lot of room for variance and water and all that, but you are definitely on the right track.

It's great that you took a step back, looked at things, and realized we weren't trying to be dicks and wanted to help you. And it really looks like you are well on the way to success. Just stay the course!

Here they are, fwiw:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1431

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1432

Thanks, TC. I always like to think I have an open mind about everything, and that my opinion on things can be changed with a persuasive argument (and I find it a constant source of frustration in life that most people can't be that way).

And in response to the part where you said "it seems like this hasn't been *that* hard for you," I'd like to clarify with, "It hasn't been REMOTELY hard for me. But then again, a lot of folks ITT are talking like 2700 cals is a lot of food, so it probably SHOULDN'T be that hard for me at this point.

The only things that approach the word "difficult" come down to changing habits and default thinking. Like when it's mealtime and I'm in a rush, my default thinking was always, "Which fast food drivethrough will I go to?" As you can see in the log, I'm still fighting that thought process, though I've managed to overcome my "default thinking" order of huge fried chicken sandwich, huge double cheeseburger, huge french fries.

I'm also trying to adjust to going down the grocery aisles I used to skip, and skipping the aisles I used to live in.

Maybe I shouldn't label those types of things as "difficult", but rather, "challenging". I'm not afraid of 'em, nor do I consider myself an underdog to overcome such simple things.

While I've got the page open, I'll note here that I just had a banana, my first snack since I started logging. I'm usually not hungry between meals, but I was just now. Maybe it was because I switched in a ham steak instead of the fatty breakfast sausage, or more likely it was because I went under yesterday's calorie target by a huge margin. Either way, if I were at work now instead of sitting at home bored, I probably could have ignored the hunger, it wasn't like "OMG, I'm STARVING, I've GOT to eat something!"

Another thing while I'm here: I don't know if was here or the OOT thread where someone asked if I've started walking yet. The answer is no, I haven't, but hear me out on this one: if I can lose a ton of weight without doing that, then I feel I should. As my weight and calorie targets decrease, and hitting those targets isn't as trivially easy as it is right now, then I can pull that arrow out of my quiver. But if carrying this 380 around the neighborhood is a lot tougher on my knees than carrying 280 around, and if I can get to 280 without the crushing wear and tear, I think that's the prudent way to go.

Again, I keep an open mind on things, so if the plateau shows up before that point, I can always reevaluate down the road. But for now, I'm shielding my knees from that for the time being.

EDIT TO ADD: Since I mention 280, and since it has been suggested that I set a goal, that's it: 280. That's my first goal, a 100-lb loss. I've lost 50, 60, 70, 80 before, but never 100 in a whack, so if it's true that I need a short-range target, that's it. But you guys have got me thinking that the sky's the limit this one, I'm wondering if you're going to get me slimmer than the army ever could.

Another thought that popped in my head today: not only had I convinced myself that I was stuck with this build due to genetics, I've made it a point to drill it into my son's head that he is, too. I didn't want him grinding his own knees away in a lost cause, so I've been telling him for years (he's 12 now) that he's stuck with it the same way I am, the same way (insert list of obese ancestors here) were.

So if you guys are all right and I'm wrong, I can live with that if my mistaken notions had only affected me--but how do I tell my son, "Everything Daddy told you was wrong."? The kid really admires me, the way most sons admire their fathers, I guess. I just keep telling myself that if he finds out at 12 what I found out at 45, then he's still ahead of the game.

I mean that's it right there. You have to figure out a way to talk to him.

Let your new lifestyle do the talking.

Thank God YouTube has everything. Now I can show you the scene that's been haunting me all day, instead of merely describing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK81LvRMJOU

BTW, how far ahead of its time WAS that show? Forget the controversial content, no show at that time featured acting that could compare to scenes like this.

Subscribed. Good luck on your journey OP.

THURSDAY, JUNE 28, 2012

BREAKFAST: Veggie omelet in olive oil, but this time with half of a 12 oz ham steak, fried up in a dry nonstick pan. 632 cals.

SNACK: One banana. Like I said, first snack. 110 cals.

LUNCH: Four Nathan's hot dogs, two in each flour tortilla, with ketchup, mustard, and onions. Not the salad I was planning, but I was pretty hungry, and it's still "only" 892 cals.

DINNER: Was planning on another teriyaki bowl, maybe even a small salad for starters...but now it's WAAAY past my bedtime, and I'm still not hungry--those four dogs did the trick! I had slept in today, so breakfast and lunch were much later than usual, which might also explain why I'm still not hungry--either that, or it's all because my subconscious is screaming, "First Weigh-In Tomorrow!!!!" 0 cals.

TOTAL: 1634 cals, miles under the target of 2710. See you at the weigh-in tomorrow!

I think you can still tell him that genetics makes it harder for you than others, that part is true, and it will be a struggle, but tell him you were just doing the wrong thing and it let the results show and show how there are just minor things to change. Tell him how all these supposed experts were talking out of their ass and you believed them. I think being skeptical of supposed experts is a very good trait to have and I don't think he could blame you there. How heavy is your son? I remember you moving away from your kids a few years back, is that still the case? I'm wondering if you have much control over their diet, so it might be helpful to give them better options when you are feeding them. Your son is gonna be hellaproud of you for doing this. My dad was a bit heavy growing up and I didn't like it (I was skin and bones then), and tried to get him to do something. Never worked though. He wasn't as big as you, but it bothered me. He blamed bad genes and all (his brothers were way bigger, his dad was bigger, etc...). But he was in his 50s he decided lose weight and cut minor things out and dropped the pounds big time and it didn't make him look any worse to me (I was grown by then). I was very proud of him. He actually got smaller than me (although I never got to see it, he died shortly as a complication to sleep apnea due to damage to his heart over the years), so that was great to know he did it. But I think you phrase it as "these experts told me wrong, and with some help, look what I could do". At 12, he's probably got a good chance to not get to a very bad level for his weight with help.

Which is another thing - do you snore? Sleep apnea is very common among bigger people and can do a lot of damage. If you have it, you will stop breathing in your sleep, oxygen levels drop in your blood, and eventually end up waking up (without even realizing it). The severe cases can have you waking up 30 times a night. This causes you to not get into REM and not get well rested. It also will cause your heart to work harder and harder trying to get the small amount of oxygen in your blood to the rest of your body. This can damage your heart over time by overworking it. In my dad's case, he started having arrhythmias and it eventually gave out. I ended up getting tested (at the time, I was 190 lbs, so far from overweight), and had it too. But it's a lot more common in overweight people and more severe. That might be something to consider looking into if you think you may have any of the symptoms. You might want to set up a video camera and record yourself sleeping if you don't have someone who could watch for you.

As for the walking, it's not going to make a huge calorie difference but it will make you feel a lot better and also take away some opportunities to eat out of boredom. So far you have been feeling great, but it will probably get tougher after you have been doing this kind of thing for weeks and it could help you out a bit.

I'm a bit concerned you are making too drastic of a change and once you reach your goal, you'll be tempted to slip. There's an advantage in living very close to "long term living diet" rather than "gotta get the 100 lbs off diet" in that once you get there, you won't have to switch as much. But if you feel good and don't need to eat, don't force it down. But your habits need to be very sustainable for you to be successful long term.

This.

I'm aware that any progress is good progress at this point, but you should imo still try learn what a healthy meal consist of and not just count calories. With "healthy" I mean stuff that you can in all practical sense eat as much of as you can stuff down without it impacting your weight. Stuff like relative lean meats, broccoli, spinach (and pretty much all green vegetables), peppers, tomatoes, lettuce, onions, mushrooms, zucchini, egg plant etc. It doesn't really take that much effort eating 2 lbs of veggies a day and 1 pound of meat to go with it. It will pretty much fill you up and in no way make you fat. This also leaves more room to "freeroll" on the chocolate, without even having to log calories (even though it is a good thing that you are doing it right now).

One of the best parts about my boyfriend recently losing ~25 lbs is the fact that he no longer sounds like a diesel engine downshifting when he snores.

He has rather serious fatigue issues anyway (he doesn't have apnea, but might have a mild form of narcolepsy), but the really loud snoring appears to have been solely a weight issue. We're both pretty happy he quit doing that.

I mean, he still snores a bit, but it's a light, much quieter noise.

OK, the first weekly weigh-in numbers are in, and I'll preface them with, "Is this even POSSIBLE?"

Copied from the OOT thread:

I just had my first weekly weigh-in, and it says I've lost 17 pounds. I was wondering if that was even possible; I hopped on and off the scale a half-dozen times to make sure; I started wishing I had done that sort of double-check last week; I even tried moving the scale to a different bathroom tile; I wondered if bending forward to see around my belly to read the scale was affecting the measurement; I went and got my phone/camera to use as a periscope for this purpose!

Anybody got a gif of Sean Connery in Red October backing away from the periscope, looking positively shocked and pleased at what he's seen?



Here's the most recent pic of my son. I should point out that in recent months, he's been living part-time with his grandmother, for the express purpose of trying to feed the kid better and take him to the gym. IOW, not long ago he was a lot more overweight than this:



Plus, he's 12, so he's starting to grow into that body a little bit.

His grandmother is a big lady, so I don't know if she knows any more about nutrition than I ever did. She reports that she finds this kid's appetite remarkable. He just never wants to stop eating. I just told her, "That's my boy!"

--Yeah, I snore like a bastard. INCREDIBLY loud, I'm told. If I fall asleep in the recliner, I'm sure to wake up with a sore throat and sore nasal passage.

--Don't be concerned that I'm making "too drastic a change". This has been the LEAST drastic diet I've ever tried! It's not even CLOSE. I'm ENJOYING this one, which I could never say about any of the others. So far, I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything.

Yeah, he's a big boy, but at that age, he probably can't weigh more than 180 or so, so healthy habits and small changes can basically make him grow into the body while losing a few pounds along the way. But without the changes, he could easily be 350 by the time he's 18.

Do you always feel super tired and groggy in the morning, or are you well rested after sleep? I used to fall asleep everywhere, always be tired in the morning, etc... After I got my sleep apnea machine, I started waking up before 7 without an alarm and full of energy. I never fall asleep watching TV anymore. It was huge. Snoring by itself could be a weight issue, or a sign of sleep apnea, and it might be worth getting a sleep study just to be sure. For me, they had me sleep with a oxygen monitor on my finger one night at my own bed, then collected the data the next day. Based on that, they can tell if more study is needed. It might be worth talking with your doctor and is a very simple thing to check and won't require any drastic measures if not needed.

This is good you are enjoying the diet, but it's a lot of times easy to get excited about something right away and have that excitement drop with time. Just keep in mind your goal (2700 calories), and as long as you beat that, you are winning. If you feel great one day and only need 1800, great win, but if you start getting hungrier or feel the need to eat a bit more but stay under your goal, that's still a huge win, so don't beat yourself up.

No, I've never in my life woke up feeling well rested. That's what those Diet Cokes are for in the morning.

You're almost certainly dead-on with your apnea diagnosis of me, but before I get fitted for my mask, let's first see if dropping 100+ helps any.