They also need to have a standard based on age. A 20 year old clearly should have much higher T than a 70 year old. But I don't think standards really reflect that.

What do you mean no permanent results?

Will a 500mg/wk 13 wk cycle with mild post cycle therapy be the better noob cycle like most sites recommend?

I have a 4 month window coming up where I will have tons of time to strength train and then will get busy for a while. I just can't decide whether to dabble in a little T or not.

Good links AB. Goes someways in explaining the high variance in my results.

I mena that if you do a cycle with 250mg/week, then cycle off; I doubt you'd see much of a difference 6 months later than if you hadn't supplemented T at all.


Also, of course, you should be aware that 250mg is definitely enough to shut down your body's natural production. So when you cycle off there will be some lag getting your body to start producing T again.


I haven't read up much on cycling on and off because that's not my plan. So I'm not the one to ask about the best cycle for newb gainz.

Most physicians get little or no training in the evaluation and treatment of testosterone deficiency. They just rely on guidelines from books and have near zero experience with treating men with testosterone. When laymen such as ourselves have to start learning about TRT and hormones just for the sake of being able to find a competent doctor in this field, I don't feel too bad about taking matters into my own hands. Self-administering TRT does not mean you can never visit a good endocrinologist anymore. Obviously if I were to do this for the rest of my life, I would work towards finding the optimal dosage, doing the required bloodwork, and seeking help/advice from professionals. The only difference is that I would do the injections myself, which is easy peasy.

A bigger concern I have is whether or not UGL testosterone will remain so easily available for the coming 40-60 years. I am in Thailand now where pharm grade Bayer testosterone is simply sold OTC, but I don't think I'm going to stay here forever. And there is no such thing as TRT in Belgium either.

My only experience with injecting testosterone a few years ago was a 12 week "beginner cycle" of 500mg/wk of testosterone enanthate combined with an aromatase inhibitor. I had easier strength progress and better recovery in general. That was it really. The only side effect I had was a little bit of water bloat from increased estrogen levels. Unfortunately I suffered two injuries somewhere halfway the cycle, so I decided to quit, and I couldn't lift for almost half a year after that because of the injury (I had a cervical disk herniation). So obviously losing all my progress was inevitable.

I don't think it's as simple as that, I don't think anyone would "want to" be on a DHT suppressor as a standard. DHT is an essential hormone and plays a important role in producing libido. You're right that it has been associated with prostate issues for years, but there seems to be a lot of debate about this idea and it appears to have been debunked a while ago. Supposedly it would be the androgen-to-estrogen ratio that would be at the cause of prostate enlargement issues, not DHT. I think the only thing anyone would "want"or should strive for is hormonal balance with as little products as possible. I know about your family history and you seem to have a good doctor so she probably knows what she's doing, but saying that everyone should be on a DHT suppressor when on TRT sounds far stretched and oversimplified.

I also ran into a bunch of studies stating that men with low testosterone have the highest rate of prostate enlargement, prostate cancer, and fastest growing tumor growth.

Why would you want to do this once-in-a-lifetime mini-cycle in the first place and what are you looking to get out of it exactly? Are you just looking for a shortcut to big boy weights? If you would never get into this thing again, I don't think it's worth messing with your endocrine system if you don't suffer any low T symptoms.

Also, TRT and cycling are two very different things.

There is no yes/no answer for this. It just depends on the kind of cycle you did and the kind of results you produced. Obviously if you take a huge amount of products and gain a ton of strength in a really short amount of time, it would be impossible to maintain all of this once you get off. You would keep *some* of it. Or if you instantly add 10lbs in weight, it's just going to be water retention from increased estrogren levels, so again, this would just fall off once you end the cycle. Also realize that post-cycle you don't just immediately go back to your natural levels, it can take a few months before everything restores back to normal, so if you would've made a lot of strength gains, then it's also going to be really hard to maintain (all of) these during this post-cycle (hormonal crash) window.

My first real reason to contemplate going on TRT was the low result I got in the first test and learning other people's experience of TRT which I didn't even know was a thing before last week. Then the subsequent results came back better but now there are experts saying there isn't even a good assay for T testing so that and the following reasons made me want to go back to the idea of TRT:

1. I really need to gain upper body strength and my core training will follow a continuum to heavy upper body work. My legs are huge compared to my torso. In any case, the upper body strength is needed for further injury proofing and becoming strong. BUT I will have to do that in tune with mobility work and special progressions for speed work that follow mcgill's ideas, and of course, will still be doing lower body work.

2. Because of the above, I have to continue in a slight surplus for at least another 6-8 months. Sure, I could do a very slow cut but with 8 hours of work Mon-Sat, a back with low endurance and long-duration-circuit-like programming coupled with heavy full body workouts, I don't think I should skimp out on nutrition yet. S&F = H&F for me atm. The problem is, I am already in the 22-25% bf and I am not stating loco percentages here.

3. Taking 1. & 2. into account, I wondered if taking 500mg / wk for say 16 weeks would minimize fat gain while I get to a certain level of strength and speed without getting overwhelmed with the amount of work to be done and life responsibilities. I already took so many days off work this year when my injury symptoms were acute. Beyond that continue with normal bulking and cutting cycles. Obviously starting the T cycle when I can do high intensity work. So cliffs are it will kind of work like a recomp?


Also, when you did your beginner's program, did you start taking the aromatase inhibiter right off the bat or after the enanthate cycle was complete?

Finally, I am still not clear on how TRT dosages would be different from a noob beginner's T cycle?

TRT will be longer with low doses with goal of making your T levels in the optimal range VS Cycling T with larger weekly doses which would be just for making shortcut gainz

Is this right?

Aromatase inhibitors block the conversion of androgens into estrogen, which means they allow you to control estrogen levels when you use steroids and thus help you avoid side effects. So yes I used a low dose right of the bat at that time and my E2 still went up quite a bit. It got just outside of the "optimal range", but I didn't suffer any side effects other than water retention. It varies from person to person if and how much you need to use exactly.

TRT is a replacement therapy, as in you take an "unhealthy" male and you use testosterone to bring him back to youthful hormonal balance so they can function properly and eliminate whatever symptoms they have. Usually people seem to be getting somewhere around 70-100mg/wk from their doctors, with the occasional outliers up til 250mg/wk... for olds like Big Poppa, I guess. The idea of TRT is to be on it for the rest of your life once you start, because your body simply doesn't produce enough T by itself.

Conservative beginner steroid cycles are usually around 500mg/wk with an added oral, because the goal is to reach suprahuman levels of hormones so you can gain a lot of size and strength in a short amount of time. So yeah, it's used for performance enhancement. The more extreme you go, the more rewarding it gets, and the higher the risks, obviously. Using much less than 500mg/wk for a short while won't get you that much results other than a bit smoother progress.

Heh, well, surely it would improve protein synthesis and yes it would help you to get stronger faster. But what are you getting out of it other than saving some time and it being "more convenient"? Getting strong/fit/sexy is a lifelong battle anyway.

Honestly the more I think about it, the more I start wondering why I ever decided to do it myself. Lol. Luckily I have low libido and I can use that as an excuse now.

That being said, you don't need anyone's approval to start doing it. If you think the risk/reward is worth it for you, just go for it.

thanks, Syn

Well I have at least a month (maybe more) to read about this stuff and think it through. My program will be more rehab-centric for the time being

According to my doc, a DHT inhibitor should be used if your DHT gets too high, and mine was. I was on progesterone for this and apparently that was not enough, so she put me on a small amount of finasteride instead. fwiw, my doc's "normal" range for DHT is 16-79 ng/dl. Mine was 103 on my last blood test. I trust my doc's decision on this.

Some of the stuff I read indicated prostates do not function well if you have low T, and that is the main reason why I initially looked into HRT.

Except for Cha not one person posting in this thread has close to a good reason to go on TRT.

Everyone else in this thread is young, has no health issues that TRT would help solve, and for the most part can still dramatically increase their strength and aesthetic levels naturally with a little bit of hard work and discipline.

It's not like you guys have been grinding the iron game and dieting for years and really reached your Bodies potential and need that little bit of oomph to get to the next level.

Except for making you a little stronger and leaner in the short term with less work I doubt there would be any benefit from trt for anyone who has expressed an interest in this thread. Just my 2c.

uhh yeah there is? Because your testosterone levels have been artificially deflated your entire life by virtue of living in the modern era in a 1st world country and males tend to be better off overall with "normal" or high testosterone levels, all else constant.

I asked the question earlier, but if I'm not taking any vitamins what should I be taking? I have a pretty balanced diet already but realize that I could be missing key stuff since I end up eating a lot of the same things.

For T-Boosting purposes I've read before about zinc + magnesium. What about other stuff? Fish oil is supposedly good right? I dunno about anything else. I'm a total vitamin noob.

Just fish oil and vit D afaik. Definitely not gonna find anything that boosts test in any significant way other than good old Vitamin T

Maybe stimulants have an effect on T? They certainly increase libido.

Fish oil is probably most important imo.

Here's a useful link: http://examine.com/

okay good to know! thanks guys I'll get some

Guys, I kind of want to make a "how to do your first cycle" post because the amount of misinformation on this topic is absolutely incredible and 500mg test e/wk is quite possibly the worst thing you can do, not because it's ineffective but because you are going to get lots of water weight+gyno and look like **** and it will be very hard for you to combat side effects on a long estered compound at this dose.

Am I pushing the envelope to far by doing this?

I think a "how to do your first cycle" would be very helpful for some people here.


Personally, I'd get more out of "how to do a lifetime maintenance dose for olds."


edit: But putting keeping it ITT instead of a new thread might help keep a a lower profile

meh i think 500 test is fine to start thats about what im on right now and i look fine its all going to vary from person to person I was bloated every single day just taking the 300 test and all the DHT drugs tren masteron winny halo etc the only way i dont bloat is when i waterload then cut the water..u will obv be super bloated if your diet is fried foods and tons of sugar but if your eating lean proteins and veggies small dose test will likely be the best start for a newb

This would be very much appreciated!

somewhere i found beginners doing a really short 8-10 week cycle. 250mg first week. 500mg next 6 or so weeks and then tapering it down between 7-8 week and going on clomifene two weeks after the cycle

I'd love to see this. This is not in my near future (I think) but I'd love to read it. You have a incredibly concise, analytical way of posting and are clearly well informed on the subject so I think a lot of people would benefit.

It will also be interesting to know what sort of diet one should keep during a cycle for different purposes. Ex- already lean fella just looking to add more muscle vs someone looking to shed fat and gain muscle

I'd be interested too.

However I think its iffy with regard to "legality". The Forum Admins, not just mods, might need to weigh in honestly.

from the FAQ sticky:
Q. I have a question about (insert illegal substance here). Is that okay?
A. Yes, absolutely. This forum was built to support all of these types of questions and concerns. Freedom of information largely reigns. For example, here's some information on steroids. However, posting links to places where you can purchase illegal substances is strictly forbidden.

There's a five year old thread in oot about buying weed in a new area, nobody reads this forum, and nobody is going to die and have their parents blame this site.