I disagree that he should be eating around maintenance. He's fat and needs to lose it. 195 at 5'7 or whatever for a non athlete is fat. He can up his protein and do basic strength training while losing significant fat. If he had been eating like a 160 pound guy instead of 195 he would weigh less and look better. There's no reason he can't start eating like a lighter person while also doing strength training and making significant progress.

Agame, that described person would make negligible physical progress, and even if they lost all the fat, still wouldn't have much for a chest benching only 150x3. Frankly the same guy who can do 20-30 pushups might look stronger. Also 3x3 isnt enough volume for a beginner on bench, even on a deficit.

[QUOTE=AGame18;51708737]I am very good at going on extreme diets and dropping a lot of weight fast. I am really bad at eating 500 calories below maintenance daily and losing a lb a week. Just really hard for me.

That's great. No one is good at that anyway. You can make the "extreme" element how extremely close to optimal your diet is. High protein, tons of fiber and fruits and veggies, consistent meal plan.

Plenty of experts such as Lyle Mcdonald argue for the effectiveness of a 2-week period with a large calorie deficit followed by a normal high protein diet, also with a significant deficit.

I'm completely on the other page from other recommendations here. When I was a beginner, I did an extreme diet while doing weights on the side, and it was amazing. Tons of people get awesome results doing this. Weight is the priority for a fat person and there's no reason to intentionally make losing it slow. You can gain proficiency in basic barbell movements while rapidly losing fat.

Isn't 5/3/1 intermediate? Why not just run SS or GSLP at about maintenance until you stall, then switch out and/or cut? By your estimate it wouldn't take long, but you may just add more strength than you'd expect. Getting stronger is the hook that can keep you lifting.

Because he's fat. Why should he wait and cut? He's 195 at 5'9 and not an athlete. He thinks he needs to lose 20 which means he needs 30+. The #1 most important thing he can do for his health is not to get 20-25% stronger at compound lifts and lose weight, it's to lose the weight while staying active, now. He's clearly eating too much and has been for a while, and should immediately address it

If you routinely are doing the same thing over and over then
A) No changes will occur because the body has adapted to what you're asking of it
B) Isn't that boring?

He's not talking about addressing it, he's talking about crash dieting at a 1200 calorie per day deficit. It wouldn't be his first time and he wants to add muscle. May as well learn to eat at maintenance (or slightly below) now, then learn to run at a reasonable deficit. I think he should just start with a more simple linear progression than something with mesocycles.

I've done SS several times before. Unfortunately my days of squatting 3x a week are over. I also just don't really like the program and find it too boring for me. Need more variety to keep me motivated, even if it is less efficient short term.

Also any idea what maintenance calories for someone my size actually is?

I go to the gym 4x per week but don't have an active job apart from that.

I have no problem with a 1200 calorie diet to kick off, provided that the micro and macro nutrients are perfect (huge protein intake), that there is a refeed period, and that he switches from a huge deficit to a moderate one after the initial crash period. I agree that more calories are warranted if he's doing any significant strength training, and he definitely needs to be doing some sort of physical activity on top of this diet. But a deficit is critical

Why would he eat maintenance for a 195 pound fat person when he should weigh 175 tops? That makes no sense. He's fat. He needs a calorie deficit. Telling him to eat maintenance for 195 and lift weights in the wrong advice.

Loading compound lifts to the max of your abilities shouldn't be boring. It should require the highest degree of focus and physical exertion. I don't even know what to tell you if that bores you. Can you do pullups? Have you been adding weight to your deadlift? Or would that be boring? I don't get it. Is there any form of exercise that isn't boring to you? It sounds like you are lamenting not doing curls instead of lamenting not working hard enough to actually achieve your physical goals. You need to be going to the gym and progressing on a variety of compound movements to make appreciable gains, and you need to dial in your diet, and you need to do this indefinitely. Even the bodybuilders know this.

Adding weight to your deadlift doesn't keep you motivated? Increasing reps on pushups and pullups? Come on man.

Your mindset needs work. Regardless of how many times a week you squat

Every bodybuilder and powerlifter knows they will lose strength and/or muscular endurance when they diet to make weight. Those who don't are usually on the sauce (or at the very least hormonal assistance) or are freaks and very weird dudes.

But they accept it as part of the lifestyle.

As a natty non-competing lifter you need to figure out what your real goals are before you start a diet or start a program. You read like you're floundering around wanting something but not putting in the time and effort to figure out how to get their and maintain - hence your extreme "success" dieting but apparent weakness relative to weight.

Did you even read my posts? My mindset is fine. Chill.

I didn't say I'm bro-lifting and **** all you Rippetoe disciples. I said I am doing a Wendler-esque program which I enjoy better and is better for my body and schedule than SS, which I have also done quite religiously once upon a time.

All my lifts are compound and yes I add weight to my deadlift and yes I can do pullups and no it is not boring.

What is boring is the restrictive regiment of SS. It also involves squatting 3x a week while adding weight every time--something I cannot do on either front, nor is it something I need to do as my legs are disproportionately large--and never doing low weight high rep work. I will always squat 1-2x a week because of how fundamental a lift it is and the benefits beyond just gaining leg strength/size but SS just isn't for me at this point in my life. I don't see a problem with that. There are many ways to lift.

I do go to the gym regularly and am not looking for a ton of advice on programming. Despite being in the beginner thread I am not a beginner lifter. I also don't need advice on diet. I was a good weight for many years and only in the last 6-10 months have I gained, mostly from a gluttonous summer.

I was just looking for advice on what type of progress I could expect to see, if any, by lifting while eating at a deficit, whether large or small, over a large period of time, an endeavor I have never before taken and one that very few take for obvious reasons.

My goals are simple. Become lean and ripped without gaining any more weight or losing more muscle than I am/have now, regardless of how long it takes.

I don't agree with your assessment of my attitude. I just think my goals are very hard to achieve and so figuring out the best way to go about it is not easy.

What is so magical about your current weight?

Nothing really. I just barely fit into my clothes now and the extra weight is not worth the strength gains for me. I don't mind gaining a few lbs where the difference would be negligible--I already have actually just by lifting without changing my diet at all. But I'd like to stay under 200 for sure for aesthetic purposes.

When you say "muscle you have now" do you really mean strength or size first? And you're not falling into the Permabulker mindset of "my size is all muscle" are you?

I did not give any programming advice nor do I espouse SS as a good program for anyone.

What are your lifts? How many pullups can you do? 167 or whatever you said you were before at 5'9 and still needing to lose fat doesn't sound like a true intermediate lifter to me. 195 and needing to lose 20+ isn't great either.

You can expect to get back whatever you put into it. If you've been fighting to progress your deadlift forever you definitely won't increase it further. If you've actually been showing steady progress while maintaining that weight, then there's no reason you can't continue to make progress while losing weight. If you're going to be eating 1500 kcal a day you can forget that though.

What is your BF%? You can't expect many gains at all when on such a deficit your best bet is maintain as much muscle mass as possible. Unless you are a rank beginner but it doesn't sound like you are.

It is entirely possible for an average person to lose weight and gain strength/mass as an intermediate lifter as long as they aren't completely ******ed. If you are 30+lbs away from being "ripped", it should be trivial to recomp.

It's definitely possible, but anecdotally it just doesn't happen very often (without the gear obv) and certainly not very often at all for an average person beyond beginner stage. I have seen guys do it but I would never describe them as average. Maintenance on muscle mass and strength whilst losing 30lbs would be a pretty decent success. You would find your speed and relative strength lifts going way up. I am not suggesting not trying to get stronger is a good idea. Just in terms of goal setting and what would be considered a success. Some people get weaker on a cut right away and start chopping and changing programming looking for the magic bullet and it's not necessarily productive. Prioritise the weight loss and put your energy into trying to ensure you get no weaker is what I would suggest and intermediate programming with relatively low volume is the best way to do it. Consider maintenance strength as a gain because your Wilks went up haha. A lot of this depends on time frame as well obviously. The slower the cut the more likely to be able to gain mass/strength.

It happens all the time. It's common for out of shape people, such as beginner to intermediate lifters who slack off and blow up like balloons, to make significant strength gains while losing significant fat. You not having seen it doesn't make it rare. In my experience it's what usually happens when someone fat starts training and eating normal amounts of food. Ever go to football camp?

Don't you think there's a difference between a 16-year old walking bag of testosterone and an adult?

Well I don't really care about strength. In a world where strength was not correlated to how you looked, I wouldn't care at all if I couldn't bench 50 lbs if I was ripped and muscular anyway.

Obviously that world doesn't exist. My arms/shoulders/chest aren't nearly as defined and/or large as I'd like them to be, but I know from first hand experience they will be smaller and look worse were I to cut 30 lbs strictly from cardio + diet. This would help me reach one goal but at the cost of not reaching another.

Not exactly sure what my numbers are but guesstimated 1RMs based off the last few weeks would be like
Press - 125
Squat - 200
BP - 140
DL - 225

Press has always been my best lift so it is disproportionate to my other lifts especially bench which is my worst.

I can do maybe 4-5 pullups.

It happens for really fat guys and beginners all the time. For the rest, not so much. Maintaining is gaining if you are losing 30lbs and an intermediate is what I am saying. Results may vary. Don't think it's a failure if you can't do everything at once.

These numbers are low enough that there's probably a better chance than I suggested before that you will gain strength on a cut as you have a lot of gains in the tank so to speak. Intermediate programming is still the way to go because novice style linear gains on a cut is unrealistic.