Testosterone Info Thread - Health and Fitness Forum

Use this thread to share information for those curious about where their T numbers *should* be, or what is most optimal.

What are the important things to get tested?

Where are good resources to read about the topic? Share links and articles on the topic.

Personal results and questions are welcomed!

Quote

05-21-2015 , 12:39 PM

cha59

ARTist

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,254

Total test is not a good measuring stick according to my doctor.

The numbers that matter are free test and bioavailable test. According to my doc, optimal levels are:

free: 46-224 is optimal
bioavailable: 110-575 is optimal
total: 250-1100 is optimal, but again, this number is not very meaningful

You want to be near the high end of optimal levels.

Quote

05-21-2015 , 12:40 PM

SenseiSingh

banned

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 8,379

20th May Afternoon
Age: 30
Total: 358.04 ng/dL (241 - 827)
Free: 13.65pg/mL (8.69 - 54.69)

21st May Afternoon
Total: 494.23 ng/dL (241 - 827)

Further results incoming..

Quote

05-21-2015 , 12:41 PM

SenseiSingh

banned

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by cha59

age/weight/height don't matter?

Quote

05-21-2015 , 12:42 PM

cha59

ARTist

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,254

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenseiSingh

age/weight/height don't matter?

Not very important afaik

Quote

05-21-2015 , 12:45 PM

cha59

ARTist

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,254

Copied & edited from Syndr0m's log:

If your T levels get too high, your body does shut down its own production of it. I'm no expert, but I think the amount you're taking is more than enough to make your body shut down its own T production.

The things in your blood that you need to watch that I know about:

- DHT levels. If your DHT goes too high, one of the issues that can happen is prostate cancer. You should be monitoring your DHT. There are things you can take like progesterone or finasteride (sp?) to suppress DHT, but you need to monitor it closely and take specific amounts of one or the other to get it right. The standard dosage of finasteride is usually 1 - 5 mg a day, but my doc has me on 0.25 because other things get ****ed up if you take too much of it. She previously had me on 20mg, then 30 mg of progesterone before changing to finasteride. Needless to say, you ought to have a knowledgeable doc watch this stuff for you.

- estrogen levels. Your estrogen levels will go too high if you're taking test and not taking an estrogen blocker. Again, a doc should be helping with this imo.

- red blood cel count. If that goes too high, lots of bad things can happen. My doc suggested I give a pint at Red Cross once because it was marginally high. I didnt because I had a meet coming up, then I forgot about it. My next blood test, the red count came up a little lower (possibly diet related, idk? she seemed confused by this), so she said I could skip giving a pint until after my next office visit. Regardless, if you're taking more test than I do, (.35 ml twice a week), your red cel count is probably going to get pretty high. Again, a doc should be helping with this imo.

There are probably some other things I'm not remembering too.

Evoken probably has stuff to add about all this.

Quote

05-21-2015 , 12:56 PM

Bluegrassplayer

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Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 38,648

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05-21-2015 , 01:38 PM

BookToMarket

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Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 7,957

My own personal numbers are:

Code:

            Free   Serum       
12/1/2011   ??     414       
6/1/2012    ??     474       
1/7/2015    11.4   541       
1/14/2015   10.3   548

I think I got the free #s tested in 2011 and 2012 but I will need to dig up the lab results.

Over these ~3 years my lean muscle #s definitely went up and it's nice to see my total T #s going up as well, but having such low free #s is disheartening. I don't think my scale is the same as the numbers that cha is referencing. 46-224? I think the scale I saw was like 9-24 and I was at 11, which was still "normal" so they wouldn't do anything about it

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05-21-2015 , 04:06 PM

saw7988

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Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 11,463

In, even though I kind of don't care. But it's interesting stuff.

Yea BTM and cha you both need to note what units you're using. BTM you probably were using the same as SS?

Quote

05-21-2015 , 04:11 PM

#10

Evoken

2014 Golden Loco

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 10,302

I've been spamming this article since 2013, but it's a pretty concise explanation of the motivation behind getting TRT, even though it's written in a fairly colloquial and informal tone.

https://boldanddetermined.com/low-testosterone-levels/

The science: Testosterone levels have been steadily and consistently declining in males of all ages in the past several decades. Nobody is really sure about the exact causes. It's probably a multitude of factors including meat treated with hormones, environmental estrogens, and widespread use of plastics.

Full text: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...0/jc.2006-1375
News article cliffs of full text research: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/...onfidence.html

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05-21-2015 , 04:15 PM

#11

BookToMarket

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Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 7,957

Good eye saw.

I'll update my table

My own personal numbers are:

Code:

            Free (Direct, pg/mL)   Serum (ng/dL)     
12/1/2011        ??                  414       
6/1/2012         ??                  474       
1/7/2015         11.4                541       
1/14/2015        10.3                548

Free  -- standard range = 8.7-25.1
Serum -- standard range = 348-1197

Quote

05-21-2015 , 04:17 PM

#12

ano12345

banned

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 13,741

So not surprisingly, the guy who gets his numbers from a doctor who makes her livelihood convincing rich, white middle aged men their quality of life will be higher If they supplement testosterone to "normal" levels has "normal" guidelines higher than most men seem to have.

Didn't see that one coming.

Quote

05-21-2015 , 11:57 PM

#13

Syndr0m

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,177

Good post by Evo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evoken

I guess maybe it's different in your part of the world, but there's a strong argument to be made that if you were raised in a western country you pretty much need to be on trt from the getgo because your endocrine system has been ****ed with since birth. Yes, if you take testosterone your natural production will be impaired. Never permanently shut down, but there's a chance that if you ever need to get off trt for whatever reason your natural production isn't going to work as well after being dormant for a very long time. But your "natural production" was already un-naturally low from all of the environmental tampering that's happened to you since birth.

Further reading on that:
https://boldanddetermined.com/low-testosterone-levels/

But yeah pretty much everything Cha said (see his post above). Everyone reacts different to testosterone/AAS. A good rubric is that you will experience at least 1 of the following but never all 3: 1) Acne, 2) gyno or at least nipple pain, 3) hair loss or prostate enlargement

DHT being too high doesn't cause prostate cancer, but it does cause the muscles of the prostate to grow too quickly and can predispose you to cancer. High DHT can also cause hair loss in some people. High DHT can also cause uncontrollable libido to the point where your penis hurts from jerking off so much (guess which of these I got...)

High estrogen can cause gyno, water retention, predisposition to fat gain, soft erections, and sometimes emotional problems. Interestingly, if you use drugs to fight estrogen and get it too low, you get sore joints, 0 libido rather than just soft erections, and even worse emotional problems so balancing it just right can be a challenge.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 03:21 AM

#14

SenseiSingh

banned

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 8,379

from Syndr0m's log:

a significant jump in my total T from 358 to 494 in a 24hr time period. Both samples taken mid afternoon..

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenseiSingh

Yea hopefully the morning samples (just drawn) are even higher. I drank 3 beers and a shot last night about 3 hrs before going to bed. Wonder if that has any affect on the test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer

When I placed my order the instructions said you can't ejaculate 24 hours prior and must fast 12 hours prior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenseiSingh

Really? I was told it's supposed to be random so no need for fasting or behavioral modification although 24 hr ejaculation makes sense. Morning timing was suggested as counts are higher right after waking up.

The sample for the higher total number from my last test was definitely within 24hrs of jacking off.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 06:59 AM

#15

Pummi81

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Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 6,787

What's normal?

Age group	# of Subjects	Total Test.	Stand.Dev.	Free Test.	Stand.Dev.	SHBG	Stand.Dev.
25-34	45	617	170	12.3	2.8	35.5	8.8
35-44	22	668	212	10.3	1.2	40.1	7.9
45-54	23	606	213	9.1	2.2	44.6	8.2
55-64	43	562	195	8.3	2.1	45.5	8.8
65-74	47	524	197	6.9	2.3	48.7	14.2
75-84	48	471	169	6.0	2.3	51.0	22.7
85-100	21	376	134	5.4	2.3	65.9	22.8

Total Test in ng/dl
Free Test in pg/mL
SHBG in nmol/L

Converted to conventional units / put together from here -> https://books.google.fi/books?hl=en&...erview&f=false

What's good/optimal?

Let's say we want to be at least one standard deviation above average.

E.g. for me, as a 34 year old, I'd like to have:
787+ Total Test and 15.1+ Free Test.

Discuss.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 07:45 AM

#16

Pummi81

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Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 6,787

Also, if our blood work happens to come back with low T or low free T I feel like we shouldn't focus exclusively, and as the 1st cure, on exogenous T.

Getting/being/staying/ lean should come first.
As well as optimizing our diets and lifting.
Although I guess more T would help with all of those things, sooooo....

Anyway, doing random 'estradiol', 'testosterone' etc. searches on Pubmed, stumbled across this study -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15001605

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels. Leder BZ1, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.

Abstract

As men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.

Kind of interesting and illustrates well how big influence having too high estradiol levels has on Test levels.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 07:47 AM

#17

SenseiSingh

banned

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 8,379

Update:
20th May Afternoon
Total: 358.04 ng/dL (241 - 827)
Free: 13.65pg/mL (8.69 - 54.69)

21st May Afternoon
Total: 494.23 ng/dL (241 - 827)
Free: 16.24 (7.69 - 54.69)

22nd May Morning
Total: ??
Free: ??

morning results pending..

Quote

05-22-2015 , 07:49 AM

#18

Syndr0m

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,177

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenseiSingh

20th May Afternoon
Age: 30
Total: 358.04 ng/dL (241 - 827)
Free: 13.65pg/mL (8.69 - 54.69)

21st May Afternoon
Total: 494.23 ng/dL (241 - 827)

Further results incoming..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pummi81

E.g. for me, as a 34 year old, I'd like to have:
787+ Total Test and 15.1+ Free Test.

Discuss.

If optimal free test ranges from 9 to 55, 15 still seems really low

Quote

05-22-2015 , 07:55 AM

#19

Pummi81

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Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 6,787

It doesn't.

In India maybe.

ETA: 6.93 - 20.11 in my lab.

ETA2: Also, I wouldn't call these lab-provided ranges 'optimal', they're reference ranges and if the lab is smart they use your agegroup's reference range instead of all males aged 18-80 or whatever.

Last edited by Pummi81; 05-22-2015 at 08:04 AM.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 08:18 AM

#20

SenseiSingh

banned

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 8,379

Well I didn't want to throw up this morning's numbers until I got the free count as well (will get it monday) but this morning's total - 539.33.

I am pretty sure there will be a 3-4 pt bump in my free when the results come. I think I am pretty happy with my numbers all things considered.

Pummi, my doc said these ranges are usually refined through statistical analysis of what the labs see. Sometimes they can buy data as well but usually start off with some basic ranges given to them via historical health data as a normal distribution which then keeps getting more and more refined as they conduct their own tests.

Syn, you missed my 21st afternoon free count which came at 16.24

Last edited by SenseiSingh; 05-22-2015 at 08:24 AM.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 08:40 AM

#21

Syndr0m

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,177

Damn sensei, time to leave the dead bug twists behind you and start packing on slabs of muscle!

Quote

05-22-2015 , 08:55 AM

#22

SenseiSingh

banned

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndr0m

Damn sensei, time to leave the dead bug twists behind you and start packing on slabs of muscle!

Just waiting for some cable crossover hype! Need an intermediate between what I am doing now and something like pull ups which cause back symptoms presumably from weak lats and some core dysfunction not fully resolved which together break my form.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 09:15 AM

#23

Jbrochu

banned

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16,054

I need to find a new primary care doctor since switching insurance about one year ago. (I'm lazy -- prolly low T.) I'm 2 years overdue on standard bloodwork and some added stuff that I'm supposed to get checked every year due to family history.

How can I find a PC that will also agree to do this testosterone testing and treatment if necessary? Do I just ask when calling around?

I've actually been wondering for a while about if I have lower than normal T for my age since a few years ago I seemed to lose a lot of drive and focus and energy. Though I had been in bad car wreck around that time with a serious concussion and thought these problems might be related to the concussion.

Quote

05-22-2015 , 09:16 AM

#24

__w__

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,640

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evoken

I went down the T rabbit hole last fall/winter after finding out my total available # was 330 at age 34. Sleep, activity levels and types (most men don't lift heavy things or do hard manual labor anymore), food types (allegedly soy ups estrogen/hurt T production), along with numerous other components.

After reading/researching all these different things, I implemented some of them in to my daily life. At the end of the day, my dong got a little harder, but I really didn't notice many other differences. Never did actually get re-tested, and like others have stated, the Total Available T number is the least useful of the three.