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Old 06-12-2009, 05:14 AM   #1
Spenda
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The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

I'd like this thread to be open to all questions/comments about IF, not just my own. I have yet to do this program but am strongly considering it.

I found an old thread about IF but it was 2+ years ago and I'm positive a lot more information has surfaced. The more I read the more I like, I'm not a big night-time eater and I sleep more than most. I feel like I'm quite a nice candidate for at least a 16/8 leangains type approach if not something even more.

I'm running out of places to look, I cannot find an outlined diet plan for something like IF. I understand the basic concept, whether it's 16/8, 20/4, 24 on-off, but I haven't been able to find the answers to a few questions.

1. Is this doable for those looking to bulk?
--I've been on leangains and read a lot from Martin, in fact I've emailed with him and am seriously considering signing up for his private consultations. I still want to get stronger and have always equated that with weight gain, although from all the propaganda I read on IF it seems you can lose weight and still gain muscle/strength...but don't all diets say that? It seems like a lot of calories to fit into 6-8 hours, as right now I'm taking in ~4500/day.

My other thought is to continue to eat/bulk regularly for the next 2-3 months until I achieve my size/strength goals and then move to IF. Thoughts?

2. What about pre/post work-out
--I understand that our main carb sources are going to be fruits/veggies, does this mean I have to discard my typical PWO (with dextrose) shake? From what I've gathered meals shouldn't be coming in shake-form at all, instead in bigger, more "satiating" solid food form.

I have a bit of trouble with running out of gas in the gym, even with basic strength work outs with large amounts of rest in between sets. I'm also unsure about when to work out during this program. Basically I'm worried that my work outs are going to suffer.

Any thoughts about IF are appreciated, I'd like to learn as much as possible about the diet.
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Old 06-12-2009, 05:22 AM   #2
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Thought I'd throw in some links

www.leangains.com
--website of one of the IF experts, Martin, who says he's writing a book on it but it's been over year...

http://leangains.blogspot.com/2008/0...-fat-loss.html
--a blog post about IF that gives a rough diet outline, but nothing too concrete in terms of nutrient breakdown

http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2008...le-and-health/
--interview w/ Martin and and another IF proponents/experts, Brad Pilon (who wrote eat, stop, eat).
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:23 AM   #3
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

I can't help you with you bulking questions as I use IF to drop BF. Regarding workouts, I sip on BCAA/EAA drink during the session and it keeps my performance up. I work out fasted which most people don't recommend (including Martin) but it helps me keep my daily routine very simple.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:09 AM   #4
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Best source i have for my IF is www.arthurdevany.com. It is a private blog though. Costs about $30 a year I think for membership. Do you do the Paleo Diet?

IF is relatively easy if you maintain a low insulin level. You don't get the extreme hunger pains that those whose insulin spikes and crashes get. You should also work out following a fast (as your hunter gatherer ancestors would have).
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:29 AM   #5
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

i've always been interested in IF since Jeff first brought it to my attention. but i've had my share of fasting over the years during Ramadan and it can be really really tough (psychologically, like those cartoons where bugs bunny is hungry and looks at daffy and sees a roasted turkey dinner on a platter). i was never cut out for it - or maybe i'm weak - because i'd never make it past a week during Ramadan. i'm looking forward to this thread tho to see if IF is more doable.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:36 AM   #6
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Just a simple observation - IF makes sense in that it allows your body to be free of digestion for the longest period of time. Digestion and eating slows us down and somewhat limits our ability to do what we want to do. In nature, I believe, the only animals that can undergo an IF are carnivores. Perhaps this is because it is relatively hard to find food but mainly its because meat is more satiating and much more densely packed with nutrition than vegetation. Most people that eat an all meat diet eat twice a day, sometimes just once.

Nice quote from a good article on IF

Quote:
In research settings animals that are intermittently fasted are fed every other day, so they eat whatever they want for a day, then they are denied food for a day. Interestingly, on feeding days most of the animals eat a almost double the amount that their ad lib fed mates do. Thus the IF animals eat about the same number of calories overall that the ad lib fed animals eat, but, and this is a huge ‘but,’ the IF animals enjoy all the health advantages that the CR animals do, and, in fact, are even healthier than the CR animals.

Like caloric restriction, intermittent fasting reduces oxidative stress, makes the animals more resistant to acute stress in general, reduces blood pressure, reduces blood sugar, improves insulin sensitivity, reduces the incidence of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease, and improves cognitive ability. But IF does even more. Animals that are intermittently fasted greatly increase the amount of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) relative to CR animals. CR animals don’t produce much more BDNF than do ad libitum fed animals.
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/i...better-health/
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:09 AM   #7
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Quote:
and improves cognitive ability.
i've found the opposite to happen every time i fasted.

Alan Aragon had a good article on IF. not sure if it's outdated. http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objecti...t-fasting.html

conclusions in that article about IF

Quote:
§ Animal research has shown a number of positive health effects of ADF and CR.

§ Human ADF research is scarce and less consistent than animal research, showing both benefits (insulin sensitivity is the most consistent outcome) and risks (impaired glucose tolerance in women).

§ So far, control groups are absent in all human ADF studies. Thus, no comparative conclusions can be drawn between ADF and linear caloric intake.

§ The validity of the single published controlled trial to date (Stote, et al) comparing 1 versus 3 meals is heavily confounded by an exceptionally high dropout rate in the 1-a-day group, and the use of BIA to measure body composition.

§ The 1-a-day group reported increasing hunger levels throughout the length of the trial, echoing the problem of hunger with a reduced meal frequency seen in other similar research.

§ Ramadan fasting (12-16 hours per day, sunrise to sunset) decreases daytime alertness, mood, wakefulness, competitive athletic performance, and increases the incidence of traffic accidents. It's difficult to determine the relative contributions of dehydration and a lack of food to these adverse phenomena.

§ The effects of exercise and meal frequency on body composition is an interesting but largely unexplored area of research.
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:41 PM   #8
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenda View Post
I'd like this thread to be open to all questions/comments about IF, not just my own. I have yet to do this program but am strongly considering it.

I found an old thread about IF but it was 2+ years ago and I'm positive a lot more information has surfaced. The more I read the more I like, I'm not a big night-time eater and I sleep more than most. I feel like I'm quite a nice candidate for at least a 16/8 leangains type approach if not something even more.

I'm running out of places to look, I cannot find an outlined diet plan for something like IF. I understand the basic concept, whether it's 16/8, 20/4, 24 on-off, but I haven't been able to find the answers to a few questions.

1. Is this doable for those looking to bulk?
--I've been on leangains and read a lot from Martin, in fact I've emailed with him and am seriously considering signing up for his private consultations. I still want to get stronger and have always equated that with weight gain, although from all the propaganda I read on IF it seems you can lose weight and still gain muscle/strength...but don't all diets say that? It seems like a lot of calories to fit into 6-8 hours, as right now I'm taking in ~4500/day.

My other thought is to continue to eat/bulk regularly for the next 2-3 months until I achieve my size/strength goals and then move to IF. Thoughts?

2. What about pre/post work-out
--I understand that our main carb sources are going to be fruits/veggies, does this mean I have to discard my typical PWO (with dextrose) shake? From what I've gathered meals shouldn't be coming in shake-form at all, instead in bigger, more "satiating" solid food form.

I have a bit of trouble with running out of gas in the gym, even with basic strength work outs with large amounts of rest in between sets. I'm also unsure about when to work out during this program. Basically I'm worried that my work outs are going to suffer.

Any thoughts about IF are appreciated, I'd like to learn as much as possible about the diet.
1. Yes. IF bulk: http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com...highlight=Bulk

keep in mind he is a freak and/or on teh juice

2. Does not matter. I enjoy a shake.

Martin recommends lower fat on training days, with moderate fat pre and post-workout and carbs filling out the rest of calories. In essence, a carb refeed. Most of the time minimum 5 hours for hormonal reasons.

Martin also recommends getting in a lot of NEPA (non-exercise physical activity) during the fast. Walking a lot will oxidize extra fat and can aid in the recomp.

Basically, IF changes nothing. I think you are missing this. It isn't a lifestyle or whatever, it's just a method of changing what time you eat some/most days. For some it works very well and is a great calorie control method that allows them to live a healthy lifestyle, and for others that is not the case.

If you wake up and aren't hungry, you can give it a try. Most people find that if they fight the initial hunger spike it will go away for several hours.

I personally wouldn't IF every day unless you actually end up not hungry. Borge F:"I've found that if you have bouts of hunger during the fast and it doesn't go away after 3-4 days, IF is not for you".

Some days I follow an IF pattern and others I don't, depending on what I ate the day before and whatever. But that's me.

Think about this: if you are fighting for very low bodyfat, there will be many different considerations. Training will change, you can't just eat when hungry, and you can't expect gains. If you are taking stimulants while fasted, you might have problems.

Apart from this, you can just be smart and it's like any other smart plan. If you listen to your body, eat really well, and train intelligently, you stand a good change to recomp. This is much less likely for an advanced trainee, but most on here are novice or intermediate level anyway.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:26 PM   #9
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

dont eat for the first 8 hrs after waking up
eat normal diet and amount of calories the rest of the day

the end
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Old 06-13-2009, 03:09 AM   #10
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

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Originally Posted by jgarza View Post

thanks, that's a pretty good thread

From what I gathered he went 3meals/day on "cut" days at or around maintenance with a minimum 1hr "brisk" walking and on work-out days he'd refeed ~4000cals in two big meals post-work out with a smaller 500 calorie meal coming before working out. He said the 2nd big meal was right before bed time, I'm not sure if I could pull that off.

Reading further he's not a big fan of doing those huge refeeds unless someone is already in the "lean" phase, he says it's somewhere around 12-14%, which I'm definitely way out of. Something to do with insulin sensitivity I guess.

Last edited by Spenda; 06-13-2009 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:20 AM   #11
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Martin refeeeds insanely huge after absurd experiment weeks. Like he did a 7 day PSMF with SS work, full body depletion, fasted HIiT with more SS, and then eats several thousand carbs LOL

Search for threads by Work and threads with "refeed" in the title that Blade has posted in dating back a few years
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:44 AM   #12
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

I gotta say, eating a whole box of cereal does sound appealing
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:15 PM   #13
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Gotta bump, been on this the past 3-4 days, still bulking, finding it ****ing impossible to eat 1, if not 2 2k calorie meals. How can you possibly eat a 1500+ meal that is "low/moderate in fat" and high in card/protein?

I had like 3 wheat hoagies stuffed with turkey today with a couple baked potatoes and 3 pieces of fruit, almost got me there but the meal took so long to eat I almost felt like counting it as two meals. Any ideas?
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:07 PM   #14
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

just eat constantly for like 6 straight hours. and baked potatoes and fruit are not very calorically dense, 2 baked potatoes and a box of strawberries is like 400 cals but feels like much more. get some low fat ice cream and bagels. maybe some snackwells fat free cookies. ff milk is also good if ur feeling full.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:36 PM   #15
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

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just eat constantly for like 6 straight hours.
awesome
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:11 PM   #16
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

FWIW when I used to do this

I would eat 5 eggs, wait an hour, eat broccoli + chicken, apple almond butter, then dinner steak + veggie or fish + veggie....meat was normally at least 1/2 a pound per sitting and veggies covered the entire plate...like an entire bag of spinach, or broccoli or what not.

It worked pretty well and I felt good...though sometimes had some discomfort due to just feeling full....ultimately i stopped the IF cause it wasn't really compatible with crossfit... but when I get off my recent crossfit kick and decide to do MWF type workouts I'll likely go back
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:47 PM   #17
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

I don't understand the fixation with IFing. IF if you ate a ton the night before or aren't hungry or it's convenient, whatever. Otherwise, just eat a damn meal. You are bulking. If you want to be good keep it relatively clean and eat when hungry at first, then start ramping up the kcal if this is insufficient. 4500 seems like a lot too.
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:47 AM   #18
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

well I was eating that many calories through like 6 meals a day before IF, but tbh it was a chore and it was a ton of fatty red meat, very low carb (except around work out) and I was looking for a change.

I'm the first to admit I don't know enough about dieting, although I'm more educated than the average schmoe. My problem with "eat when hungry" is that'd be once a day, as I have no problem fasting. I love to eat b/c I love good food, not b/c I need the fuel, not sure where that leaves me, but I'm still looking to get bigger/stronger and was hoping to find an easier way than 6+ meals daily.
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:17 AM   #19
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

So your conclusion is to cut out the first half of the day?

Just make your meals bigger. And eat your carbs, WTF man. Throw some milk in with meals, ****ton of fruit, other junky **** if you are so inclined, slam a huge PWO meal, w/e brah.

I have trouble believing that you are going to have difficulty putting on quality mass if you eat enough to gain half a pound or more a week and add weight to your lifts, and it seems like you might be overcomplicating the process or whatever. IF is nothing magical.
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:30 AM   #20
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

well, at least on work out days I liked the thoughts of eating the vast majority of our calories post-work out compared to being spread evenly through out the day. Then I thought if I was going to do some form of IF on workout days it seems counterproductive to go the other way on non-lift days. After reading about a lot of different diets it was the one that seemed to fit my lifestyle the best, so I'm going to try it for the time being.
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Old 10-08-2009, 12:54 AM   #21
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

Bump. What happened to this? I'm trying to cut a little while maintaining muscle. Did IF work for you, spenda?
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Old 10-08-2009, 02:18 AM   #22
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

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Originally Posted by Genz View Post
Bump. What happened to this? I'm trying to cut a ****ton while maintaining muscle. Did IF work for you, spenda?
fyp for me

very interested as well
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Old 10-08-2009, 02:31 AM   #23
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

3rded, I'm also cutting.

Nice bump.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:27 AM   #24
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

I've been basically doing 18-off, 6-on, but not necessarily by plan. I just haven't been that hungry lately so I eat once, maybe twice a day. Yes, I've been able to lose weight doing this, and eating 600-1000 calorie meals (clean eating) is quite filling.

I wake up, usually wait 4-5 hours to eat, down a big ass breakfast, then wait 4-5 hours and eat a big dinner, then a few hours later I'm in bed. I'm also lucky that I sleep a lot more than most people, usually ~10 hours (I live on more of 26-28 hour cycle than 24 hour cycle). For some I'm sure having to wait 6+ hours after waking up could be torture. On days I lift I'll take down some chocolate milk PWO.

In the end I'm sure IF has some very positive merits, however, I think just following your stomach, eating when hungry, and taking in proper macros around your work outs is the best plan.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:35 AM   #25
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Re: The IF (Intermittent Fasting) Thread

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In the end I'm sure IF has some very positive merits, however, I think just following your stomach, eating when hungry, and taking in proper macros around your work outs is the best plan.
AJ gimmick account itt
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