Quote:
Originally Posted by StinkWater
i would love to see this - very interested in your training. i went to a scottish festival last year in costa mesa, ca and they allowed people off the street to enter the novice division in the throws competition. i did it and had a blast.

yep - i'm going to compete in the novice division in costa mesa again this year. my first time touching the implements was during my competition throws last year - i would say about half the novice field was in the same boat. planning on getting some sort of practice in beforehand this time.

Gorilla,

What type of gym lifts (besides DL and Squat) do you personally think translate the best for these type of events?

Awesome. Much respect for getting out there and competing.

Unfortunately, there isn't any substitute for the events themselves. Your DLs, Squats, Cleans, Presses, are necessary but that aren't going to have a real direct correlation to how far you throw a weight without practicing the events. That being said, making yourself as strong and powerful as you possibly can certainly isn't going to hurt

I wrote some tips in a post that was linked earlier in the thread with regards to my training when I started throwing, might help you out some or give a little understanding.

First and foremost though, just get out there and compete. You will learn more in a day of competing than by doing anything else.

I see a lot of people who throw the shot and discus train with very heavy medicine balls. They also prioritize their training around the power clean/snatch (standard, I presume).

Do you do medball work?

Ya, that's standard for the track and field guys. While a lot of highland game athletes come from a t&f background, which is hugely beneficial, throwing a 1k discus is a world of difference from throwing a 56lb weight.

The t&f guys usually stick to cleans/snatches and the meatheads like myself are deadlifting heavy. Both camps still seem to do well, and there are a couple non-track guys like myself who are still ranked in the top 10.

I occasionally do medball work, but nothing that stays in there as a standard training session. Just throwing it around, wall slams, etc... when it gets added.

Sure. A lot of the elite T&F guys that I see prioritize deadlifting as well; though as you noted plenty of idiots (my feelings) just do the power movements. Was mostly interested in the medball stuff as it relates to Highland Games competition.

Another important question that has not yet been asked of you is this: How do you train to tolerate ever-higher concentrations of whiskey in your blood? I understand that this is very important for HG competitors.

A buddy of mine (and fellow HG Pro), Bert Sorin, does a good bit of med ball stuff. Search for 'Sorinex' on Youtube and youll see all kinds of videos.

Practice makes perfect.

But I do have to admit my consumption has slowed as my age and throws increased

So given this, would you say that it is more about technique/skill than strength/power?

Do you think (I think you do given your comments so far in this thread) there is a level (or continum) where the strength becomes secondary to the skill? i.e. Usually is a more skillfull dude going to be able to outperform a stronger dude?

Does this change from amature ranks to pros? I assume the rank beginners are going to find stronger == beter, but small increases in skill at the start will be far more benificial than even large increases in strength.

Lies!

Also, great thread. Thanks.

OOSnitch,

i will take a stab at this even though gorilla man weighs 45lb more than i do. of course there is a point of diminishing returns, in theory. in practice, pretty much no one gets there and should always try to get stronger. john godina, google him, made this comment when the topic came up in an interview i heard: "there aren't many christian cantwells in the world." cantwell is a huge shot putter who took silver in beijing who apparently has a sick work ethic and insane strength.

+1 to what miles said.

There probably is a point where strength becomes secondary to skill, but I don't think most people ever get there. Everyone still has throws where something just isn't right, be it timing or speed or whatever, and that is the skill essentially breaking down, which can happen for any number of reasons. One way to compensate for that is to have the strength to get yourself out of that mess. I have never done anything athletically related and said, "Damn! If only I wasn't so strong!" I suspect I never will say that, lol. I'm am much more on the strength side in my sport, being that I haven't practiced for the last four years. I look at the skill guys and wish I could do what they do, just like I imagine they wish they had the strength some of us do.

That being said, I and the other HG Pros, and well as all most pro athletes, have put in thousands upon thousands of reps developing the skill part. Studied, talked to other about it, visualized, stood in the kitchen mimicking a throw, etc, etc...

You are correct when you say:
When I practiced and learned the skill portion of HG, my throws went through the roof in less than one season, and I didn't get any/much stronger in that 7 month period.

I hope I answered what you were asking, I feel like I just rambled on a bit, lol.

Rippetoe preaches this.

You would think that it would be commonly accepted... but no. It is not.

And Cantwell is very impressive with 600+ raw bench and being like 6'5" and 330lbs.

Rly? I guess I'm going to have to read some of his stuff sometime. It appears to be gospel around here, and tbh, I've not seen it/him mentioned elsewhere.

I think a lot of the problems that athletes have today is their coaches, who are stuck in a rut and refuse to change whatever program they started using way back when. But I digress...

i'm not that sold that rippetoe is an expert on anything other than teaching a person how to get max strength on barbell lifts(which is obv a lot in itself). whenever someone has a problem, everything he pretty much says is "get stronger". it isn't much different than glassman saying that getting better at gymnastics will help an MMA fighter be better, like sure of course it would, but given finite recovery ability and time constraints, there may very well be something that athlete could work on that would specifically help them more. there is a continuum of skill work>a bunch of other stuff>max strength work, and sometimes an athletes problems fall in the middle category of a bunch of other stuff.

Of course. Getting stronger is not the end-all be-all answer for everything. But it captures the best intent for most of training. I think when you deviate far away from this core idea of training, you end up doing bull**** nonsense stuff that Mike Boyle advocates.

Rippetoe's ideas are best served to take a rank untrained individual in any sport in any discipline and get that person to an intermediate level of strength in less than 12 months. (You know, Starting Strength.) Beyond that, you should start to think for yourself. And I think most people agree with that.

I really wouldn't worry about your juicing history. Maybe just get better at passing tests.

I live in HB and might be interested in this if I don't have to wear a schoolgirl's outfit (srs, I'm just not man enough to do it I don't think). When/where? Also, stink, stats on basic lifts?

Snitch, I think the skill component is way overrated in strength sports. In more conventional sports, yes skill becomes a lot more important imo.

Just keep in mind what he does, he primarily works with novices and makes them strong as fast as possible.

I think Rip falls into what Mr. Smith is saying a bit, but then again his program works very well. I imagine he tries little things here and there and that is actually how Starting Strength came to be what it is today.

And I agree with you kpc in a way. But doing work outside your sport is a really good idea and an athlete should devote some training time to that. I think he's just saying cut the crap and stick to the basics outside your sport training. Get strong, and leave it to practice/games for skill work.

fwiw, I started down the line of "strength vs skill" because I find it interesting in low-level rugby, having more skills is almost always better than having more strength... But as you move up strength and skills can be equally important, but then again in the top few percentile of players, skills probably dominate again...

Most games will let the first timers go without a kilt.


While a strength sport, HG is about 39087092384509283409582x more technical/skillful that strongman or powerlifting or the like. I completed for a few years in strongman, and powerlifting just isn't athletic. For example, hand a first timer a discus and see how well he does with it, regardless of strength. Then do that for 5-7 more events and you have Highland Games. As a general statement, I agree with what you're trying to say though.


Got it. That makes perfect sense now.

Fwiw, I think the basic programming is great and a necessity for just about any athlete. Any program like SS, or 5/3/1 is good and covers what most people will ever need or use. The fact that I came here and saw you guys doing FS, DL, PC, presses, etc.. is what brought me in here in the first place.

2p2 is a bastion of progressive fitness.

how can you say mike boyle advocates nonesense given that he is the trainer for the BU hockey team (one of the best in country), and other pro atheletes?

he also says that for beginners front squatting is important. but beyond that, his priority is keeping people healthy, and this is the most important priority for anyone involved in athletics. being really strong and being healthy overlap but aren't the same.

gorilla could you share some advice on food- like how to save time in preparation? how to eat a lot of calories? big calorie and easy dishes to make?

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority.

Are you normalizing for genetic capability for athletes able to play Division-I hockey at a top 3 school for the particular sport?

This is complete nonsense. I could go train the Dallas Cowboys tomorrow and it'd lend nothing to my knowledge or ability. In fact its an argument that someone only takes elite athletes who's main goal is to stay healthy and has them do non-sexual physical masturbation in lieu of actually improving performance metrics. Why are people in the gym? To be better at their sport. What are the intermediate goals? (Stronger, faster, quicker, less injuries etc) Where is the substantiation that Boyle improves any intermediate metrics as compared to anyone else?

i really think you are missing the point on this one. the main goal of gym work for an athlete is so they can stay healthy and allow them to practice their sport more and more intensely without incurring injury.

kyle, why would so many elite athletes work with him if he wastes peoples time in the gym? also everything i see written about him on the internet by other top trainers is positive.

fwiw when i am at his gym i am actually quite surprised how LITTLE weight work his athletes do. their are some really huge football players there, they are always doing 10 m sprint work and other mobility and core exercises.