No one cares if he rounds his upper back. The problem is rounding in the lower back.

JC

I don't pull sumo so I can't comment too much. A few basics though...try to be a little calmer, get set for each rep during the set. I think part of the reason your back gets worse is because you are losing focus.

Your neck is craning and it looks as if you are using your head to drive your lift. That is a definite no go. Don't do that.

Finish each rep the same way. Another bad problem to fix, don't hitch the rep down. Stay tight and under control through whole range of motion.

Don't yank the weight off the floor, take the slack out of the bar and then pull explosively. But, again, this is a dial not a switch.

The second video looks good for position on the bar. First video you are behind the bar. Second video you stay mostly in good position.

The issue with your back appears to me that you are not setting up tightly enough, your loose and then you yank the pull which makes it impossible to keep your back in position.

Additionally, as you go through the set this problem seems to worsen.

IMO, if you fix that set up looseness, you're going to see that back issue go away.

Mihkel is recommending you use switch grip because it is the easiest way to get rid of your grip problem. If you don't want to do that, and you aren't planning on competing, use straps. And/or you can add in some grip work to try and improve grip strength.

Johnny,

Have you considered the possibility that DL'ing is just not for you? Not trying to be a negative nancy but you've been working on your form for a considerable time without much improvement. Imo you have to decide whether it's really worth risking your back for. You don't have to DL to get big and strong and you don't have any powerlifting aspirations right?

Haha the video is pretty bad.

BPA,

Thanks for the advice. I think you're spot on about needing to be calmer. Every other lift I am always very calm, but I get kind of "psyched up" before I deadlift, I don't know why. It does nothing for me, and probably only exacerbates my long documented struggles with getting tight on the floor.

Also I keep reading that if you can break the floor with sumo, then you can lock it out. But I still struggle just above the knees, I'm guessing it's because I yank/roundback it like that. "Dial, not switch" might be a good cue.

Rav,

No offense taken, you're absolutely right. No, I have no PL aspirations. Actually, my goal isn't really even to get big and strong.Mainly I'm just trying to have fun in the gym. And I do like deadlifting.

About 5 weeks ago, I was completely ready to bail on Deadlifting. And honestly I don't have any faith on ever having a good conventional form. However, my flexibility is good, and I still have some (possibly vain) hope that I can cobble together a passable sumo pull. Even at 135, my conventional DL takes a lot of focus to not look like garbage. Sumo was immediately better, I'll look through my videos.

I have 3 more weeks left on this program. After that maybe I'll think about just dumping DLs for awhile. Then I could squat more, and have more time to do things I'd like to do more frequently like Push Presses, rack pulls, shrugs, farmer's walks, et cetera. Which now that I've typed it, actually does sound pretty great.

Have you trained RDLs, jc?

Ok here, I think this was from Jan 6. It's lol weight, but after the first rep I think the back looks stable (except maybe the cervical area from looking up).

Yeah I did them for like the first six weeks of this year, in sets of 12-6 reps. They didn't seem to help too much, but maybe I was doing them wrong. Unfortunately I never filmed a set.

I would suggest training them as your primary hip extension exercise, at a weight you can do with a flat back, for as long as it takes to work out whatever strength imbalances and kinesthetic issues you have.

+1 on rdl's or even rack/block pulls if you like them better as they feel more deadlifty while being much easier to do with a neutral spine.

I mean I can try them again, but it seems like my big problem is position off the floor. Even the neck thing is (I hypothesize) an attempt to force my back out of flexion. Maybe I should try light pause Dls.

But I do respect your opinion, especially since I've been lurking your log and have watched your assiduous attempts to rework your own DL.

Edit: Last part was to Renton not Rav, obviously. However rack pulls might have the same problem as not helping off the floor. But maybe both exercises would help by some sort of "conjugate" principal. Honestly I don't know I am a pretty big ****** when it comes to biomechanical stuff. I still legitimately can't understand if my problems are from a weak back relative to legs or vice-versa. I do know that if I get a hernia, I won't be having any "fun" in the gym. Unless I discover a new passion rehabbing at an underwater jazzercise class.

I just think that the self-regulating nature of the RDL movement pattern would benefit you. You maintain a flat back while going as low as you can. The eccentric ends when your back begins to round, and you train as much of hip extension ROM as you are able to.

By all means work on some pulls from the floor/blocks too, but it's likely you won't be able to go heavy enough.

JC

RDL's are actually a technically more demanding lift and for most people, especially newer lifters, harder to do correctly. I wouldn't start doing them unless you had someone to physically show you.

IMO, you're not that far off. If you want to fix your dead lift, dead lift. For most of us starting out, it's not easy to do these lifts well. But, Unless you have a specific physical defect that completely prevents you from doing an exercise, just do the exercise.

Should be no surprise that it's hard. Most of us start out first world weak. And the solutions are not found in changing exercises, spreadsheet programming or thinking that we are special snowflakes that need special help (not saying you are)...the solution is do the exercise and work on the lifts every rep.

I really don't see anything in your videos that can't be fixed with a little bit of work. And your last video looks better than the first...so you are obviously getting there.

I support everything in the last 2 BPA posts except referring to a mixed grip as a "switch" grip.

But that is a forgivable problem.

But I'd especially like to emphasize the common misunderstanding that RDL is a substitute for DL because someone can't DL. I don't know how that started, but its dumb and dangerous.

Sorry. wtf...Mixed not switch... eta I see now...meant to write switch to mixed.

I was trying to be nice about the RDL and softball my response. But, agree RDL in lieu of DL for someone who can't DL is dangerous.

How is it dangerous? It can't be more dangerous than pulling from the floor with a turtle back? Honest question btw.

Obv we aren't saying that a rdl done poorly is better or safer than what he's been doing. He would need to learn it and perform it correctly like anything else.

Thanks a ton for the advice and encouragement, BPA. Only one thing:

But I am!

No really I appreciate everyone's input. I am going to try to be extremely conscientious about getting tight when I pull next week. Whether it goes well or not, I promise I'll post a new video to this thread on Friday.

You really think you're gonna be able to use the same weight or more and suddenly start pulling with your back in neutral? You're too upright even for a sumo lift and your lumbar rounding isn't acceptable long term.

How about seeing if you can stay in extension with 135 and keep adding weight until form breaks down?

In a way I will do that. Next week I'll go for a five rep top set, so I'm just going to watch myself in warmups, and decide where I'll draw the line. I don't think 135 will be a big problem, but we'll see.

Looking for some input on my squat. I've got a bit of a forward bar path going down. Does that mean I should stay more upright, or sit further back, or something else?




(Second rep I hit the safeties)

Paused, weighted, 45 degree hypers. With a barbell. Held like a deadlift.

This will fire up the erectors, glutes to help prevent that lumbar rounding and upper back to prevent shoulders from rounding forward.

Angle is crappy having to look at his butt but you get the idea:


Rubish explaining it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpG21_BpEfs

wrt RDLs

The problem with subbing in the RDL for a DL is that it requires more procioception in the lumbar spine to maintain neutrality and understand when it breaks down. For someone who is unable to do this in the DL will be nearly impossible in the RDL. Despite the lower load, the switch to a new movement and the increase in torque on the lower back makes it a greater injury risk.

I think doing ones with just the bar or a suitably low weight so that you learn how hinge your hips and when you are losing lower back tightness is great. I just don't think its a viable substitute for the DL.

@rav Not bad, keep that head more neutral because it looks like it's going to fall off. I would advise looking straight ahead or slightly up and focus on the cue "show your chest to the wall" or "chest up", especially as you come out of the bottom, which would help you eliminate those leaks.

Aren't RDLs good for teaching this, though? Especially with lower weight as you mentioned later in the post. Then, once he learns, couldn't he increase the weight on the bar and learn how it feels when his lower back begins rounding at heavier and heavier weights?

Also, let's just say for example that the lifter doesn't have the hip mobility to pull from the floor or even from high blocks. Would a heavy limited-ROM RDL not be a viable alternative for said lifter?

Thanks I understand those cues for a forward bar path when coming out of the hole, but I drift forward on the descent instead. Would those still apply?
It's supposed to be a lowbar squat btw, not sure if that makes a difference.