I feel comfortable with my response to AJ and to you. You can overly nit and derail it into whatever you want.

I am definitely a liability at mealtimes...although not as much as you would suspect.

I would happily help you rack your weights...if that would cut down on your whining.

You've made a handful of equivocating comments that don't really make any sense. So lets help clarify:

1) Is it dangerous for people with preexisting injury to round their t-spine in the FS?
2) Is it dangerous for all people?
3) Should hand positions (basically anything other than clean position, hand on bar) that leave users prone to rounding be unacceptable?
4) At what weight does thoratic rounding start to matter?

I'm sure you'll avoid any actual discussion since you did this the last time you made a silly comment and I pointed it out. But always hope that you wanna learn and help other people along the way! (Me included!)

Take it to your log or mine and I will respond further. Form Check and Beginners thread not place for your "performance art".

This is literally the entire purpose of this thread. I'm discussing the ramifications of what you put forth as a potential injury risk. You seem to be unclear and equivocating in your position and I'm hoping that everyone who wants to FS potentially safely will be bettered by your advice.

I squatted again today. I have the two previously stated issues:

-my squats are not upright enough
-my upper back is not strong enough to prevent from rounding (form as well)

Even when I do bodyweight squats, it appears that I am not upright enough to achieve a proper front squat.

My elbows are shaking on heavier loads and I'm having trouble fully engaging the lats. The shaking is worst when I really try to drive the elbows together and up, rather than just up. Which means I should probably be doing this?

However, with no weight at all, I can squat with the upper back in neutral as demonstrated below.

I also tried the hand position cue and ran into some problems:

(1) when I hold the bar in both hands, even with two fingers per hand, the bar tends to not be far enough back, and either puts stress on my wrist or rolls slightly back when I descend
(2) when I do the above, my right shoulder and elbow is lower than my left due to my right shoulder mobility issue, which is an unacceptable result

I am uncertain if I should be widening my grip. I experimented with several grips with no real success except finding that the narrow and wide grips don't work

I ran into another issue today as well: in my attempt to stay upright, I kind of sabotaged myself by not bending at the knees fully when descending. This is ultra apparent in my bodyweight squats in the video below, where I cut depth in an attempt to stay upright (failing miserably)

This was a bad session and I'll have to do another to post vids so you guys can give more useful feedback

I see a bunch of weird stuff going on. Pretty bad session but some progress/learning

Oh my little thrempalina....you do so go on. Your fake nitty little bitchument, like you, is just so so weak.

So sad little thrempalina

AJ
I still say pretty good overall. You can widen your grip as needed to help get better position on the bar. You may need to be extra wide to accommodate your specific issue. The bar should be tucked back tightly and not roll at all. Rolling back means it's too far forward to start.

The reason I am advocating getting your hands on the bar is because your elbows will be up, not down. Elbows up is pretty standard and helps maintain an upright position as well as giving you an inherent cue to stay upright. Drive them up at the bottom and it helps counter the natural lean or arching forward that will occur when you ascend.

I know this is basic stuff but, huge air in at the top, elbows up, you should be striving to feel your upper back straighten and then arch as you get in position, stay aggressively tight, descend as low as you can go without losing your back position or leaning forward, and then drive the elbows up at bottom as you ascend. Your elbows wont move but the thought and action will counter the weight.

I cannot hold the barbell in my fingers without it being too far forward, putting weight on my wrists, and resulting in my right shoulder/elbow being lower than the left due to my mobility issue

I'm going to switch to back squats while I do PT and add back in front squats when I have normal mobility in my right shoulder

thanks guys

I'm hearing different cues here, arching the back vs. keeping it in neutral. Flexing the lats. Etc. When I get back to front squatting I'll just see what I can do without turtling the lift.

I'm practicing BW and I can get pretty upright and keep my back extended by putting my elbows very high, way higher than I can go with weight. I may need to adjust the height of my squat stand as well.

Switched to BS. Any input appreciated.

Right knee still wants to cave at max attempts. I think that's my way of knowing the weight is too heavy. Maybe adding some bulgarian split squats

Honestly arching the back is mildly dumb cue (don't bend your arms when you clean levels of dumb). If you have any degree of lumbar mobility you can easily get into hyperextension, this is especially dangerous when training women. (On the flip side, if extremely obese they don't have to worry about the massive stores of estrogen in their fat, so they can lose a lot of weight safely.)

Have you tried to use a theraband and squat with it to see if its actual weakness or a motor pattern?

Widen your grip to keep your wrists in line.

Can you elaborate on widening the grip?

I just bought the theraband to try this. Will work it at BW.

After reviewing my squat session it seems that I am mildly caving at 90 on the 2nd rep of the last set due to fatigue, and am getting twisted up on 95. Max without aborting the lift is around 100. On 95, I am not getting my knees as wide in the bottom position as all the other lifts. So it seems that form is deteriorating around 90%, with the right knee caving and the core getting twisted up on the ascent if I go any heavier.

My max back squat sets in the past around 160/350 also suffered from this caving issue, though this was without getting twisted up in the core

Assuming you aren't FSing to assist the olympic lifts, have you considered using straps to hold the bar from above? I have crappy wrist and shoulder mobility so that's what I did, and it worked really well for me. Aside from the supperating scabs on the first knuckle of each hand, that is....

Yeah, it's an idea, even doing a bodybuilder cross hand position could work.

Got a couple more for you guys experimenting with DL setup

The first pull, I intentionally round the shoulders, and arch the mid back when I start to pull. Had a little trouble setting the lower back but got there. The 2nd is a tighter setup with the upper back extended and a slightly lower start.

AJ:

DL pretty close on both imo. Second one looks less optimal than the first one. In first one however, I know you are rounding shoulders, but as soon as you start the pull your shoulders come back. Which they should be set back and down anyway...I would suggest starting the pull that way.

HBBS looks absolutely fine. You could focus on staying tighter in the bottom but other than that good. You lean a little bit forward at the bottom but no major issue just something to stay aware of and keep working on. You could widen your feet some...that may help... and if you do it should be easier to consciously drive your knees out which will help with knee cave and reduce that twist you have going.

Regarding upright position and elbow position for FS or BS. Hard to type out, easy to show in the gym...but a way to get a solid idea of it is to sit in a chair, sit up straight with your forearms resting on your thighs...leaving your elbows down, bring the back of your hands up to your shoulders...then raise your elbows up and out while keeping your hands at your shoulders....take a huge aggressively deep breath...if all that reads right what I am trying to get across should be apparent.

That position is optimal for back and front squat. Your lats are fired, you're upright, chest is fully expanded, your upper back will arch a bit or at least feel arched.

That is the stable platform you want and, especially when you are putting relatively heavy weight on the bar, that will be the difference between success and failure.

On BS, due to the bar and hand position your elbows will be lower but everything else will remain as stated.

When you start your ascent you drive your elbows forward and/or up. They won't actually move significantly but you will get the benefit of the effort.

Is DL ideal apart from starting with the shoulders/mid back in position?

I actually don't start pulling until right after I arch the mid back. I was trying to keep my shoulders rounded over while doing it to bring me closer to the bar. My max effort attempts all result in this rounding so I figured I should try setting up that way for max efficiency. Are you saying you can maintain an arched upper back on max pulls?

Re: HBBS, Widening the stance makes the caving happen at lower weights. I already push the knees out. It seems that I'm not getting them fully out at the bottom over 90%. Maybe I should widen anyway and work the knee issue at lower weight. Theraband will help

Yeah I get the front squat cues and can do this. I can get my elbows high enough with just my bodyweight, but there is tightness in my shoulder that will prevent me keeping them up on heavy attempts. In a FS, are you driving the elbows together and up, or just up? I find that if I don't drive them together, they track out to the side, but if I do I shake badly during the lift.

As far as driving the elbows up, you mean in a BS? I was always told to drive the elbows down to arch the mid back.

Thanks for the reply

If your back rounds as soon as you start pulling, set up like that.

Focus on your knees over your toes. Caving is the issue, not "getting them out" which is kinda ?!?

Just up. I don't know where you picked up the in cue.

That elbow cue is just lol for BS.

Mihkel,

Upon further examination I misidentified the problem. My knees are staying over the toes. By knees "getting out", I mean my shin angle. When I reach the bottom of the hole and reverse, if I am lifting <90% my knees track further out to the side, opening the hips up. At a max attempt they don't track as far to the sides at the bottom, at which point I reverse and cave, then have to push the right knee back out. I am uncertain if I am failing to open the hips up enough on heavy attempts, or if I'm letting my knees track too far to the sides with light weight.

Will video the next session from the front and see if I can identify whether my knees and feet are perfectly in line.

Re: the deadlift, here's the exact moment before the bar breaks from the ground:

Looks like my shoulders are slightly rounded and mid back and lumbar are staying in extension/neutral. Could be wrong about that:

I don't understand what that means. But it doesn't really sound like you're keeping them over your toes if they're tracking outward (which I think is a problem).

.

This didn't get any responses but I'm still looking for critiques. This is from today. I'm afraid this time it's unusually bad, I did this whole workout in about 25mins (including warm-ups). Also grip is a problem on every clip in the vid, it's why I hitched the first rep of 315 and dropped the second, and it's also why I stopped after 6 at 255. I am hook gripping: I thought that was supposed to obviate grip becoming the limiting factor.

Any immediate changes to positioning before the weight breaks is a setup issue and setup should be in the position where you are when the weight breaks, unless that is an obviously unsafe position (lumbar rounding).

In this case, you should set up with an arched back if your back arches on all max attempts. This isn't a safety issue, but a "lift more weights" issue.

jc,

There is some pretty obvious lumbar rounding. Switch to a mixed grip.

Yeah now that I watched the vid on a bigger seen, I see that my back when breaking the floor sucks a fat dick. I don't know how mix grip will help though--my right hand always slips either way. I need to find some more chalk.

That is super rounding.

I want to say its a weak back. Specifically the erectors. They attach to the pelvis and upper back and if they aren't strong enough you'll see that kind of rounding going on as they can't keep the upper back and T spine in line with the lumbar.

I'd suggest paused, weighted, 45d hypers actually - or just don't go as heavy until your back is stronger.