Just in case anybody reads my log and not the July thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mQgPwUOO3E

Tried to lift yesterday. My left triceps didn't feel great, and after the first 2 sets at 205 they were constantly aching so I quit and stretched them and did mobility stuff instead.

Will probably try again on either tomorrow or Monday.

7-31

Bench- 45x12x2, 95x8, 135x5, 155x3, 175x2, 195x1, 205x3x7
Cleans- 88x2, 154x1x2, 174, 184, 194x 198, 203, 208, 213xfx2, 198
Front Squat- 198, 220, 242, 252, 262, 272

Didn't want to push the triceps too hard so I cut the bench a bit short. I won't be able to lift from Thursday until Monday, so I'm just hoping to make it that far without it getting worse. Pretty happy with the front squats given that I haven't done them heavy in a pretty long time. Cleans were meh, I should be able to make 100kg even in my very rusty state.

http://www.tonygentilcore.com/blog/b...sory-exercises

okay article IMO

Bruiser thinks I should be doing more assistance work. He seems to get a lot out of it, while typically in the past I have not. I have not really tried an assistance heavy program in awhile, but I think I could probably come up with some iteration of the following that would work pretty well:

Month A:
Smolov Squat Cycle
Bench + Bench Assistance

Month B:
Smolov Bench Cycle
Squat, DL + DL Assistance

Month C:
Work up to a new max in all 3 lifts

Might give this a shot starting in November. Assistance work is good for getting swole and I've been meaning to get more swole anyways.

Assistance work is good imo. Just dont let it become more important than the big lifts.

doug, i forget, have you tried westside? i only did it for 1 month but i felt like it was making stronger really fast. for strength i love that programming

eta: i think the link i gave is cool for a few reasons.

1) it agrees with your point first off saying immediately that the big lifts are skills and must be done often and a lot and are the main focus for lifters for a long time

2)anderson squats look cool. can get stronger faster without wasting energy on stupid eccentric part

3)use of trap bar deadlifts!!

if its the first lift done in a work i think it would be impossible for it not to be most important.?.

Agreed. Especially since I still seem to be getting stronger by modifying intensity/volume of the big lifts.

So why did you stop?

I did WS4SB for 3 months back in 2009. Since it is marketed as a beginner's program I figured it would be fine for a late stage novice, which is where I was at that time. I responded very poorly to the low volume of squatting/ benching. I think it's a good program for beginners since it is had a solid 3-5 rep component (and everything works for beginners) and it works for advanced trainees that have a ton of reps under their belt and can duplicate their perfect form/technique regularly. But for intermediates that are still struggling with some minor form issues on a day to day basis I think it sucks. There is an SPP component to the main lifts that it fails to develop because of the low overall main lift frequency. It did make me somewhat a fan of speed work, although I think you really need bands or chains to train speed effectively because they provide resistance with less momentum than regular barbell work.

I'm kind of treading water right now because my workout frequency will be way down in August, but when I resume a more regular schedule I hope to implement more dynamic work.

SPP?

you worked up to a single set of maximum effort for a set of 5 in the BP and squat? were you squatting or DL for max effort or both? did you do the lower body dynamic effort day also? what assitance lifts were you using for lower body?

I am looking at this WS4SB program now and it has some differences to the real West Side program. The west side program is pretty vague, perhaps notoriously vague... but from what I could learn when they say "max effort" that consists of 3 maximum effort sets of 1-3 reps which is a lot more intense IMO than what this WS4SB program recommends a "a max effort of 3-5 reps," and for lower body it just says "a max set of 5 reps." A single set of 5 reps is way different from three sets of lower rep maxes. Also, if you were following joe defranco's program and missed the lower body dynamic day that is an opportunity to get significant "assitantence" work you missed.

i was doing it last month but decided to change emphasis from strength to conditioning.

SPP, specific physical preparedness. Obviously the squat takes a lot of brute strength (GPP), but there are a lot of technique nuances that can easily make your max +/- 5% from week to week. Speed work and accessory work does not train technique nearly as well as doing regular near max effort sets does. I believe the program works well if you're too weak for technique to really matter or if you're so experienced that your technique is rock solid. But if technique in near max effort sets is a weak point like it is for most intermediates then you need to be squatting more regularly, not less, even if it means you're constantly training in a slightly fatigued state.

When I did WS4SB I did the lower body dynamic day (there are multiple iterations of WS4SB). I don't have a problem with assistance work. I have a problem when the recommended volume of assistance work becomes too great for me to squat heavy (read near max effort) 2-4 times a week and bench heavy at least twice a week. That is my biggest issue with 5/3/1 as well.

Agreed regarding 5/3/1. I felt my squat getting worse as I shifted from a high volume program to squatting 1x per week. I just never felt comfortable under the bar during 5/3/1.

However, I also feel that part of the issue may have been the lack of intensity in my accessory work.

what assitance lifts did you do?

jaysick and doug, it sounds like you were doing the one set of 5 rep max as prescribed by joe defranco? not the actual west side triple sets of 1-3 rep max efforts?

DB bench, close grip bench, incline bench, OHP, DB skull crushers, ez bar skull crushers, fat grip close grip bench, DB row, cable row, pulldowns, DB pullovers, RD flyes, pendlay row, barbell shrugs, rickshaw shrugs, DB shrugs, DB curls, barbell curls, ez bar curls, reverse curls, RDLs, box squats, good mornings, pullthroughs, DB swings, barbell glute bridges, split squats, lunges, farmer's walk, hamstring curls, calf raises, jump squats, powercleans, hang powercleans, DB snatches, dunno probably leaving something out.

On WS4SB I did do the prescribed 1x5 max effort set. On 5/3/1 I did the work sets as prescribed, so generally ~12 reps above 75% of my training max. 3x3xMax once a week is still not enough reps to maintain/improve technique, especially when you're coaching yourself.

Is it safe to assume you can't make much DL progress while running smolov? (not that I make much DL progress on any program where I am squatting)

I can't speak for Doug, but I actually lost ground on my deadlift due to losing grip strength, but ymmv (shameful babby hands ITT )

I wouldn't do any pulling while on Smolov, it's just too much for the lower back to handle. That said I think you can expect to increase your DL a bit while on it; it's pretty hard to have your squat go up 20-30 lbs and have your DL go down. Hammering the grip work is probably not a bad idea. You might be a bit rusty after 3-4 weeks off from pulling so it could take you a couple weeks after the cycle ends to realize your gains, but I had taken basically 6 weeks off from structured deadlifting and did a Smolov cycle and still pulled 340x5 double overhand no belt a few days after.

Not a PR by any means, but I had expected to lose a lot more ground than that.

it may have just been that I was rusty/needed to HTFU. I was able to sumo pull 495+reverse mini bands+chains on my second DL workout after Smolov though, so I'm getting back in the groove. i'll definitely agree that doing grip work while on Smolov would be a good idea

Yeah grip has never been an issue for me.

8-3

Squat- 45x5x3, 135x5, 185x3, 225x2, 275x1, 315x1, 345x1, 365xlol, 315x8?
Bench- 45x10x2, 135x5, 155x3, 170x2, 180x6x6

Knew it was gonna be a rough day when my legs didn't want to move 225 fast. My upper back, core, and PC just felt dead. I haven't had a good night sleep since Friday and hadn't oly lifted in several months before Sunday, so that combo was probably a pretty poor way to prepare for this lift. Triceps felt good on the bench at least. 3 more workouts left in this "smolovjr" bench cycle. I've stretched it out so much that I don't really expect to see significant gains.

Really looking forward to lots of sleeping, eating, and SMR over the next 4 days.

i'd be interested to see your training log while you did this. i think the WS4SB is for athletes, so it is 1x5 effort instead of the true west side set up because joe defranco doesn't want to fatigue his athletes or get them injured in true max efforts. i know this isn't enough for technique, but the intensity is a lot higher i think.

regarding your exercise selection i feel like the last 6 you list are power exercises that wouldn't help you on the squat. it depends what type of lunges and split squat you did but depending on how you load that stuff it may not be enough to make you stronger. the box squat seems so similar to the squat to me that it doesn't seem like an assistance exercise to me. maybe i am wrong?

eta: in other words, a lot of the exercises you lift i wouldn't consider good assistance exercises for the squat. i think they are fine primary exercises for a separate goal of developing power. i dunno, maybe people will show i am wrong?

What would you consider a good squat assistance then? Fwiw it is basically impossible in a low bar squat for your weakness to be anything but the posterior chain, so my squat assistance was always 1 pc exercise and then 1 unilateral exercise. After that I'd move on to core with some direct ab work and some lower back work.

i bet you could improve your squat doing a workout without a squat like

max effort goodmorning

4x8 barbell bulgarian split squat
4x8 pistols

3x6 natural glute ham raise
walking DB lunge

farmers walks
weighted plank

heh, this sounds like a pretty hard work out to me. how can i find your WS4SB log on here? i want to see you do west side barbell!

ETA: i am gonna PM greenbast to see if he will post his thoughts on this. FWIW his workouts look a lot more like what you like to do than what a west side program looks like, as far as i can see anyway

You seem to be missing a critical element. While that program may make you stronger in the squat muscles (I agree that it probably would) you need to be squatting regularly to be able to express that strength efficiently in a squat. If you do all that accessory work then you cannot adequately recover and allow yourself the 20 to 50 squat reps above 85% of your max per week that I believe is required to squat heavily correctly.

This goes back to what I said initially. Once you have the squat thoroughly ingrained and you only need ~10 heavy reps per week to maintain form then accessory work is very beneficial. But when you need more reps than that to maintain near optimal form, you don't have room for enough assistance to make you significantly stronger.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I was thinking of myself and I think my squat would go up but like you were saying I am lifting such lower weights that my technique wouldn't matter as much. Still though, WSS people say their program is for everyone including intermediates. I don't think it can be healthy for you long term to be squatting 20+ reps per week at 85% and higher that stuff is gonna ruin your hips. Id like to see KPC comment on this but he would rarely be drawn into such a content heavy discussion, unfortunately.