Hi you sexy beasts. I missed you so.

Can't remember my password and can't access email I registered with back in '05 so a new account it is.

Need a place to keep track of my journey back to the gym over the past couple of months since I'll probably be getting into the intermediate stuff soon.

Yesterday's workout

Squat 3x5x270
Bench 3x5x170
DL 1x5x315

To use a belt or not. Can't decide.

I hurt my back 4 years ago lifting. And then a year ago on squats. And then 3 months ago moving a couch. These are the type of injuries where it's initially a very sharp pain and then hurts to even sit. They last a day or two.

So on my last workout (yesterday) I decided to try a belt on squats and DLs since my lower back gets inflamed lately after squats and DLs (though goes away a few minutes later with ice).

It felt like I was cheating using the belt - felt like I was not getting as good a workout.

I'm tempted to go without a belt and just try to get my form better but part of me fears that all it takes is one slip-up without a belt to injure myself screw up my progress yet again.

But then again I read somewhere that belts don't really do that much to protect the back anyway.

Squat: 3x5x275

Had bad lower back inflammation after last set but it went away after like 5 minutes of ice. Anyways, a form check would be nice since apparently I'm doing something wrong to aggravate my lower back yet again.



(Im using straps on squats by the way since my shoulder flexibility blows)

Press: 3x5x75

Chinups: 3x3

Shoulder assistance exercises: all at 20 lbs

Seated cable rows: 3x7x160 Couldn't get to 10 reps on any of them.

I would say with a quick watch that you are keeping yourself tilted forward at all times and are never getting to lock out so at the top of the lift you still have a marked forward lean putting incredible pressure on your lower back (erectors) just to hold the weight up rather then the spine holding the weight.

Re: shoulder flexibility - your elbows are back...way back. Further then necessary I think.

Like the other dude in the other thread, your legs clearly can handle the 275 but the rest of you can't, not with good form.

Thanks Nuclear. I paid attention to that today. It seems my upper back is kinda weak, despite all the cable rows I've been doing. Or what it might be is that the bar never really feels snug and tight on my shoulders because of using straps, despite watching this Rippetoe video a gazillion times.

Anyways, today's workout.

Squat: 3x5x280
Bench: 5, 3, 3 x 175 (ugh)
DL: 1x5x325

Squats: 3x5x285
Press: 3x5x85
Chinups: 3x3

They all look a little high to me. If you're going to use a belt ditch the ****ty belt and get a real belt

Thanks. That's a belt the gym has. I went ahead and ordered a real belt (looks like an Inzer belt) after your post.

Bench: 4, 4, 4 x 175
Cable rows: 3x7x175
Shoulder strengthening exercises: dumbbells at 20 lbs each
Chinups: got Supple Leopard book and decided to try doing chinups the way he says to (guess my form wasn't 100% correct all those times before). Wasn't able to do even one in that form
Pendlay Rows for the first time ever: worked on form at 135 lb weight

Talked with ART/chiro guy today about back x-rays. He says that there compression is evident in the xrays - which is probably why I get low back inflammation now at heavier squats.

He also said because squats load the spine that, unless there is a compelling need to squat, I'm just setting myself up for worsening back stuff down the line. At my age (late 30s), so much spinal loading is not a great idea. Good article from Eric Cressey here on spinal loading from squats: http://www.ericcressey.com/newsletter91html

I asked him whether getting my form better would help significantly. He didn't think so.

He recommended I substitute leg presses and other leg stuff for squats. However, it's tough for me to just not squat because it's such a great exercise.

As for my abysmal shoulder flexibility, he is working on that.

But now here is the $64,000 question: if I stop squatting, is it even worth it to spend all the time and money - and it's quite a bit of both - for all the ART sessions to improve my shoulder external rotation, since I was looking to do so mainly to get my arms around the bar when squatting (so I don't have to use straps)?

If getting rid of the adhesion in the shoulders and pecs improves, say, my bench press significantly, then fine. If not, then I just don't see this being worth it if I decide to stop (shudder) squatting.

I think G4S did zercher and front squats to reduce spinal loading whilst still getting good leg workout in. I am not sure how much less stressful leg pressing is for your spine - might want to ask Cha his opinion.

This is my understanding as well - a belt doesn't protect you in any way from anything, it simply assists you in bracing your core in order to lift heavier things.

The only thought I've had in terms of safety is maybe on DL where you round your low back without a belt on X weight but with the belt you can lift it with proper form. However, this is more of a case of having ****ty technique and not learning to do the lift more optimally/safely in the first place.

I guess for non experienced lifters or ppl who never learn proper technique, perhaps a belt could help them since it may mask their dangerous form - but really, it seems to me since it lets you do more weight, if anything using a belt would only slightly increase injury risks since if you lose tightness or have a bad rep, you now have more weight on your body.

I'm not sure why your chiro thinks leg pressing is ok for your back. That puts shear force on the spine. I think its a pretty terrible exercise for someone with back problems. I'd question him about this.

nuclear is right on your squat form. If you're going to do back squats again (I wouldnt unless you eventually get the green light from your chiro), get your elbows under the bar instead of way back. I can see why that bothers your shoulders. Its bad for elbows and wrists too. You also have a little butt-wink, which might be what is causing your back problems when you squat. Squatting higher is fine temporarily if you need to do that to avoid butt-wink, but you should be working on hip & ankle mobility and core strength to get rid of the butt-wink so you can squat deeper without it.

Front squats are probably the best thing for you at some point, but I would talk to your chiro about those before doing them to get the green light from him. You can do those with your back upright more - that will greatly reduce the sheer forces you're putting on your back doing back squats.

Goblet squats are almost certainly fine as long as you dont allow your back to move when you do them.

A belt does nothing to protect your back. All it does is it allows you to lift heavier weights when you use it properly. I don't think you should ever use a belt for lifting when your back is giving you problems. Inzer is a great belt, so you'll have that to look forward to after you fix your back and are ready to load up weight, but ditch all belts until your back is well imo.

Fix your back problems first (get the core very strong and get the hips (& maybe the ankles) more mobile). Work your way from doing light goblet squats with good form (no back movement), to front squats, and then check back with your chiro to see if he thinks back squats are ok.

G4S basically ditched back squats entirely for FSs because of a back issue, and he FSs in the mid 500s. If you have no intentions of competing in powerlifting, there might not be a reason for you to back squat anymore.

Yes, you want to improve your shoulder issues regardless of everything else. There is stuff you can do on your own in addition to ART. Reading all of Supple Leopard is a good way to figure out a lot of things you can do to help it.

Careful here Yugo - you have a lot of this right, but DLing with a belt and poor technique or a non-experienced lifter using a belt to mask form inadequacies is a recipe for disaster. That type of thinking is what gets people seriously injured.

Keep your core & glutes tight when you do this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2727

That will fix a lot of problems.

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to lay off squats for a little bit considering everything. It's a great exercise but I'm not competitive athlete so the risk/reward probably just isn't there for me right now. I'll consider front squats, but there is a decent amount of compression force in those too.

Or maybe I'll just do lighter squats instead of stopping them. I don't have back pain at lower weights.

Btw, the reason my elbows are up in the video is I had watched a Ripptoe vid recently on bar position and he mentions keeping the elbow up so the weight is not transferred to the elbows, which he argues will happen if elbows are below the bar. You can fast forward to 7:40 in this vid to see him talk about it:

Cool. Thanks.

Also I'm gonna stick with the ART (and continue SMR, etc on my own) for shoulders per your recommendation.

Hopefully it's clear I'm in no way advocating for using a belt to attempt to mask technique issues....it's simply the only situation where I can imagine a belt "protecting your back" and it falls apart b/c it means you have bogus form. maybe I should have used a swear word with more asterisks so it was clearer I think this is an awful, awful idea.

I see now I spent more time in my post talking about a way for a belt to protect one's back. That was with the assumption that it's clear having bad form is #1 worst thing for one's back in all scenarios. And if your form is good a belt won't make it better, it will just allow you to get a "harder" brace of your core so you can lift more weight.

Dero - that is one of the few things Rippetoe got wrong on squats. It seems keeping elbows up isn't really important at all, what's important is keeping the tension in your shoulders so your spine is stable and you have that "shelf" to hold the bar.

Winding your elbows up can force this to happen but a better cue is to learn how to create tension in your shoulders by gripping the bar with your hands pulling it apart so that your shoulders stick into the sockets tightly and getting your lats really tight.

Not much weight should really transfer to your elbows necessarily. Some squatters put their hands really far apart (Cha has been experimenting with this with some success due to radial nerve issues in his arms) since your back is what's taking all of the bar's weight, not your hands/elbows/arms.

I thought I knew what you meant to say the first time, but this post is a lot clearer.

yeah, Rip is wrong about elbow position and a few other things imo.

Yeah - the good news is the things he is "wrong" about still seem like potentially helpful things for a beginner, but only if the beginner also knows that they are more like shortcut cues for "fixes" than anything else. He also obv gets so, so much right.

Press: 3x5x90
Cable rows: 3x7x190
Shoulder strengthening exercises: 25 lb dumbbells each
Chinups: 3x3

Foam roll, lacrosse ball etc. as usual


Did 3rd ART session. Not seeing much of a difference yet but at least we know it's the pec minor that seems to be the culprit of the horrible forearm external rotation, so I've been mashing the hell out of it at home.

Almost a week later and $200 later, my shoulder external rotation has improved mayyyyybe 1% (probably closer to 0%). That's three ART sessions, electro muscle simulation on the pec minor, and mashing it several times a day with lacrosse ball against the wall using a yoga block so I can really hit the pec (plus doorway stretches several times a day and no money drills, etc). Plus general foam rolling. This on top of all the stretching I've done on it over the years and massages. I tried to do the broomstick stretch yesterday and couldn't even reach the broomstick to do the stretch.

I wish I would see some tiny bit of progress to give me some hope that all this is doing something. I'll give the ART therapy two more sessions and then I'm moving on if the results continue to suck. I wish I could tell the guy, "If you can fix my shoulder rotation, I'll give you $300. If you don't fix it, you get nada." I feel like our incentives aren't aligned.

Good news is that my body recomp is going well - restarted the gym 3 months ago at 223 lbs and now I'm at 214, with the gains in strength (this is with all the family get togethers and vacations and what not that makes cutting hard). I love myfintesspal.

I'll add weekly food reports too for the hell of it (these reports take into account exercise). I'm 5'11" and weighed 217 when I started My Fitness Pal last week. I set the goal at 2 lbs a week.

Bench 3x5x175
DL: 1x5x315 (easing back into these)
Cable rows: 3x7x175 (Went down 15 lbs because wasn't getting full ROM at 190)
Foam roll, lacrosse ball, etc.