dassem_ultor's 90s weak log - Page 5

MI101 · 12-14-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NameOnTheCake

fair enough, and for sure what you said is true in a general sense, but I didn't know if it followed for squats. don't non-below parallel squats put a ton of pressure on your knees?

i think the form has more to do with knee torque. allowing your knees to move past the toes will produce more torque. the problem comes from the center of rotation moving farther back and away from the knee, stretching those tendons. it should be fairly straightforward if this is the case. the knee angle will be smaller (thighs closer to calves).

yes, depth and load play a part in forces acting on the knee.

Quote:

It should also be noted that compressive
knee forces of up to 8,000 N have been reported
for the squat, but these values were associated
with a point higher in the range of motion (74 degree knee
flexion) than was used in the present study (2). In general,
these forces become greater with increasing depth
of the squat motion (9), although it is not known if
this pattern continues when performing the squat
through the range of motion used in the present study.

74 degrees should be ~ 3/4 or 1/2 squat, imo.

Quote:

Although it is well known that shear forces also contribute
to knee forces during the squat motion, it is not
always appreciated that the greatest shear forces are
posterior (9, 16). These shear forces, however, are well
below the capacity of a healthy posterior or anterior
cruciate ligament (1, 17, 19, 21). As the knees move
anteriorly during the descent for the squat, the shear
forces increase (2). Furthermore, the velocity of the
squat motion appears to be positively related to the
knee shear forces (1)

Quote:

While evidence
indicates that the low-bar position would decrease
anterior cruciate ligament strain, patellar compressive
force, and shear forces (10), these forces are
consistently well within the capacities of these structures
with either bar position (17, 19, 21). While increasing
the forward tilt of the torso may decrease the
forces at the knee, it is likely to also increase the forces
in the lumbar muscles and ligaments (4, 10, 18).

Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2003, 17(4), 629–633
q 2003 National Strength & Conditioning Association
Effect of Knee Position on Hip and Knee Torques
During the Barbell Squat
ANDREW C. FRY, J. CHADWICK SMITH, AND BRIAN K. SCHILLING

this all, of course, is in healthy subjects. if you have bad knees, then squatting may not be the best choice. if it doesn't hurt, then whatever, but seeing a sports doc to evaluate your knees wouldn't be a horrible idea. there may be a way to alleviate some of the pain.

*some legal disclaimer i'm sure i should insert*

jdock99 · 03-11-2010, 06:54 PM

test

jdock99 · 03-18-2010, 03:24 PM

Ok, restarting the log. Thanks to SmileyEH for changing the title per my request. I am sure those of you who have argued/trolled my opinions in low content threads would agree on the appropriateness of the new title.

Had an injury and quit for a while. Restarted about a month ago (Coincidentally when I restarted posting on this forum. As an aside it does not appear my presence was missed too much) and am about back to where I was pre-injury. I am not particularly strong on any of my lifts (except maybe bp) but I am starting to stall so thinking of going to intermediate programming.

My form on squats has gotten way better. Looking back, I LOL at what I considered a squat 5 months ago compared to what I consider a squat now. Interestingly, I squat less now than I did 5 months ago. The extra ROM really makes things hard.

I tweaked the SS programming to accomodate my 90s weak goals. This is mainly because I do not eat enough or recover well enough to follow the program verbatim, especially the squatting heavy 3x a week and linear progress parts. I also bench press before squat for 2 reasons. 1) Bench pressing loosens up my body to help w/ flexibility issues in squatting and 2) Squatting makes me tired and interferes w/ my bp more than vice-versa

Ok, here goes:

Squat
3x5x185 (This is actually slightly lower than my work rep max, but I do a "recovery" workout every other workout cause I squatting heavy 3x a week is too much for my 90s weak person)

OHP
2x5x120
1x4x120 (Failed on last rep of last set. Will try this weight again next workout, if I do not switch programming, which I may)

Deadlift
2x301 double overhand
2x301 mixed grip

I was trying to do 295 but I was using 1/2 bumper plates in kg and 1/2 normal weights in pounds and messed up my addition. But to be honest as bad as this went I doubt I could have done 295 either.

I really think my form is bad in this exercise and I will hurt myself if I don't improve it, but I cant put my finger on what is wrong. I took a video of myself during a warm up set. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQxT1kC3IiQ

Pullups
10, 10, 6

I used to be better at these. I have gained 10 lbs in last few months (I am guessing 1/2 fat and 1/2 muscle) and I guess I have not correspondingly increased in strength in the relevant muscles.

Doug Funnie II · 03-18-2010, 03:49 PM

1. When you're trying to break the bar off the floor your hips rise first, causing your back angle to get flatter. The back angle should be the same from your starting position as it is when the bar is at your knees.

2. At the "top" of your reps you have neither fully extended your legs nor your hips. Your legs should be completely straight (its hard to tell how much bend is in them with those pants but they definitely don't look straight), and you should fire your glutes at the top causing you to hump the bar.

3. Its a deadlift. Each rep should be performed from a dead stop. You're using the stretch reflex to turn the weight around at the bottom faster than you should. After you put down each rep there should be a brief pause where you can regrip, readjust your feet, whatever.

Micturition Man · 03-18-2010, 04:11 PM

You have some really elementary deadlift problems. Guessing you haven't read SS or watched Rippetoe's DL setup video?

jdock99 · 03-18-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micturition Man

You have some really elementary deadlift problems. Guessing you haven't read SS or watched Rippetoe's DL setup video?

Unfortunately that is me trying to follow SS cues. Needless to say I do not have the greatest proprioception in the world, but did not realize it was that bad.

jdock99 · 03-18-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Funnie II

1. When you're trying to break the bar off the floor your hips rise first, causing your back angle to get flatter. The back angle should be the same from your starting position as it is when the bar is at your knees.

2. At the "top" of your reps you have neither fully extended your legs nor your hips. Your legs should be completely straight (its hard to tell how much bend is in them with those pants but they definitely don't look straight), and you should fire your glutes at the top causing you to hump the bar.

3. Its a deadlift. Each rep should be performed from a dead stop. You're using the stretch reflex to turn the weight around at the bottom faster than you should. After you put down each rep there should be a brief pause where you can regrip, readjust your feet, whatever.

Thanks for critique. Will definitely work on these pointers. For point 1, do you think my hips are starting out too low or I am just rising them too fast?

Doug Funnie II · 03-19-2010, 09:14 AM

Your set up is not too bad. From that camera angle it's hard to see if your back is fully in extension or not, but it looks close.

Nobody thinks "hips rise first, then use lower back to finish the lift" but that's what happens a vast majority of the time when people are learning this lift.

What is actually happening is your hips are rising to a point where there is enough tension in your hamstrings so that you can break the bar off the floor. Unfortunately by the time this happens your back has lost extension and your legs are almost fully extended, which takes most of the burden of lifting the weight off of the quads and places onto the lower back and hamstrings. You need to get more tension into the hamstrings from the start of the lift to deadlift more efficiently. There are a couple ways to do this:

A. Set up with your hips higher, which means your legs will be more extended and the lift will be mostly hamstrings/lower back but hopefully your back won't lose extension.

B. Keep your current setup and try to flex your hamstrings off the floor and try to keep your back angle constant.

C. Start at your current setup, but push your butt back farther which will add tension to the hamstrings without you thinking about it. This will require more glute/hip flexibility but is probably the best option.

jdock99 · 03-19-2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Funnie II

Your set up is not too bad. From that camera angle it's hard to see if your back is fully in extension or not, but it looks close.

Nobody thinks "hips rise first, then use lower back to finish the lift" but that's what happens a vast majority of the time when people are learning this lift.

What is actually happening is your hips are rising to a point where there is enough tension in your hamstrings so that you can break the bar off the floor. Unfortunately by the time this happens your back has lost extension and your legs are almost fully extended, which takes most of the burden of lifting the weight off of the quads and places onto the lower back and hamstrings. You need to get more tension into the hamstrings from the start of the lift to deadlift more efficiently. There are a couple ways to do this:

A. Set up with your hips higher, which means your legs will be more extended and the lift will be mostly hamstrings/lower back but hopefully your back won't lose extension.

B. Keep your current setup and try to flex your hamstrings off the floor and try to keep your back angle constant.

C. Start at your current setup, but push your butt back farther which will add tension to the hamstrings without you thinking about it. This will require more glute/hip flexibility but is probably the best option.

Thanks for advice. I can concur that when I deadlift all the work seems to be coming from my back and my legs are passive observers. So basically I need to start w/ my hamstrings tight so I can recruit my leg muscles. I will try option "c" to do this (hopefully I am already flexible enough for this)

jdock99 · 03-19-2010, 03:21 PM

Workout 03/19/2010

Hit a milestone today. First time I ever bp'd 2 plates 3x5 w/o any help. Ironically, between the last time I bp'd and this workout was a 5 day vacation out of town where I gorged and gained about 4 pounds. I guess overeating really is a major key to strength gain (Don't worry, strength gain is not my sole priority, so I will remain faithful to my 90s weak roots). I video'd the 2nd set, but the angle is horrible, so you can't see much.

I do not have the exagerated arch that is lobbied for so strong on this board, but overall I think my form is passable. However, if anyone sees anything they think is glaringly wrong, I would appreciate any critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FXF3fIZ52w

bp 225 3x5
squat 210 3x5
wide grip seated rows 160 3x5.

Ideally I would really like to do barbell rows. But barbells are in pretty high demand in my gym and I do not feel I can hog the barbell any more than I already do for my other stuff. Of all the exercises, it seems to me like this is the one where machines do the best job of mimicking an actual compound barbell movement.

3 sets handclap pushups to failure (approx 15, 10, 10)

jdock99 · 03-22-2010, 03:48 PM

Workout 03/22/10

Squats

3x5x185 (light day)

Pess

3x5x120 (PR)
Took everything I got to get this. There is no way I can add 5 lbs total (2.5 lbs to each side) and finish next workout. I really need to find some smaller weights.

Deadlift

Worked on cues DougFunnie II gave me. Tried to push back my butt to actually engage my legs. Made a couple videos, one of warm-up set and one of work-set. Looks a little better I guess, although definitely does not look perrfect yet. Would appreciate any comments.

Warmup: 3x5x (not sure- bar plus 2 blue plates)
1x5x245

warmup- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5vJ50Y4-tU
workset- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahU-c...eature=channel

Pullups: 3x5x bw+35
Standing EZ bar curls w/ core recruitment: 3x5x80

milesdyson · 03-22-2010, 05:28 PM

far behind bar, it moves back as it breaks. get closer.

jdock99 · 03-23-2010, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milesdyson

far behind bar, it moves back as it breaks. get closer.

K. Thanx.

jdock99 · 03-25-2010, 04:38 PM

Workout 03/25/10

BP
3x5x230
Considering how hard it was for my to do 225, it was surprising I could hit 230 on the first try. But then again I am kinda getting fat now, so maybe those adipocytes are helping out.

Squat
3x5x215
Yes, I have been squatting for 6 months and my bp is still bigger than my squat. LOL 90s weak.

Machine row
3x5x170

Handclap pushups/Reverse crunches
3 sets

jdock99 · 03-25-2010, 04:53 PM

On a more serious note, despite modest strength gains made in the last 6 months and modest weight gain, to be honest I do not look any better naked now than I did before beginning this workout program, which was an obvious goal.

I was a lanky, sorta awkward looking person before, and I really have pretty much the same phenotype now except that now I have calluses on the inside of my hands (which, by the way, are beginning to interfere with my love life) and scars on my shins from uncoordinated deadlifts.

Sometime in the future I may need to mix things up to address this serious shortcoming. Mabye I will need to add in some curl/tricep extension supersets, or throw in some decline and incline press or something. Who knows? Maybe some people just aren't meant to be Ryan Reynolds ripped.