And how is "Heavy Metal" different than "Hard Rock?"

I think we could all agree that Black Sabbath is Heavy Metal while The Who is Hard Rock. But where do you put AC/DC or Led Zeppelin?

My view:

first hardrock song: Communication Breakdown by Led Zep. Although, I would certainly understand if others felt The Kink's You Really Got Me to be first.

first Heavy Metal song: a lot of people feel Steppenwolf's Born To Be Wild is the first, but really, it sounds more "hard rock" to me for some reason. What about In-A-Gada-Da-Vida or even The Beatles' Helter Skelter? All of these were released before Sabbath's Paranoid and Iron Man.

So what IS the difference between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal, anyway? Is there one, and if so, how do we qualify that difference?

And what do you believe to be the very first Hardrock and/or Heavy Metal song?

Well I'm certainly no expert but I would call The Who rock, Sabbath hard rock and Metallica et al heavy metal. For me hard rock was invented in the 70s (maybe late 60s) and heavy metal in the 80s, though I may be thinking of heavy metal more as thrash instead of actual heavy metal. Hard rock being Zeppelin, AC/DC and metal being Metallica, Megadeth etc. But like I say, I'm no expert.

for me, anything with a greater emphasis on the percussive elements than the melodic elements is metal, although making that distinction is not an exact science

I might be pointing out the obvious, but this is because of the lyrics "I like smoke and lightning/Heavy metal thunder". They coined the term.

I think that "heavy metal" as a genre consists not just of the sound but of subject matter. Darkness, death, the occult, etc. Which is why Jethro Tull never should've won that Grammy in 1989 - it doesn't matter what their album sounded like.

For these reasons I think that Sabbath is really the first "Heavy Metal" band going by the modern definition.

This is definitely not the definition of metal imo.

The question in this thread title is purely subjective. Not only because people have different views of what the definition of each genre is or should be. But because, when people in the 70s or 80s started labeling songs/bands as hard rock or metal, does that create the definition of those genres forever? Metal today (or at least, good metal imo) sounds totally different than AC/DC or Born To Be Wild (which is a HORRIBLE annoying song btw). So how can you put them in the same category? I guess that's why "metal" has evolved into like 4000 different sub-genres.

i agree with ron, its all subjective...

LFS, the darkness, death stuff doesn't really have to do anything with heavy metal and not all metal is like that at all...there is also songs with all ranges of themes...

Personally, i think the definition changes with time...Sabbath may have been heavy metal in the 70s/80s, but it sounds nothing like modern incarnations of metal...

Early Heavy Metal: The Knife by Genesis, recorded in 1970 (possibly written in late 1960's?)

I recommend listening to the whole song, but specifically check out 4:00 - 4:40.
Note Phil Collins on drums and Peter Gabriel on vocals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XhDHJNuyXw

Does it remind you of One by Metallica?

That is a remarkably short sighted definition of heavy metal. There's plenty of metal that deals with many different subjects. There's even Christian metal that deals with the opposite of what you write. I'm currently listening to Mastodon's second album, which is a concept album based on . . . Moby Dick by Herman Melville.

All rock comes from the blues, but do you recognize the separation from the blues as the beginning of hard rock? I don't know where you draw the line, but "Train Kept A-Rollin" by the Yardbirds has to be a contender for first hard rock song, especially if you're going to consider "You Really Got Me." But that's still blues/rock, whereas Zeppelin left the blues in the dust with some of their hard stuff.

isn't inna gadda da vida considered acid rock?

first Hard Rock I actually LISTENED too probably was Welcome to the Jungle by Guns N Roses :/ probably heard some earlier in movies though but since im born in 82 you only start to remember at a certain age!

first Thrash Metal was without a doubt Metallica, Metallica - Battery to be exact.


and to keep ontopic I always thought of Black Sabbath as the founders of modern day Metal.

I realize they are more of a punk influence, but it seems MC5 also was a precursor to metal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC5

And even though they sound more rock by todays standards, the arrangements of a lot of Thin Lizzy songs are the foundation for much of the 80's glam rock & sort of main stream heavy metal(Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, et al).

I think both terms are generic and pointless there is so much of a broad range of music and sub genres within the Hard Rock and Heavy Metal terms that defining them is ridiculous. Although maybe I am looking at things more from a Euro view as the modern euro metal scene is pretty wide and diversified not really sure whats coming out of the states at the minute.

I don't know anybody who would say The Beatles were an influence on hard rock, and I wasn't alive when they were around, but wouldn't "Helter Skelter" have been considered ground-breakingly hard when it came out? I guess at the time plenty of late-'60s bands were doing that, but when you listen to pop music from the period, especially the Beatles, it's a bunch of "Love Me Do" and "Be My Baby" and Bob Dylan, then they put out this screaming electric guitar riff on the White Album. No?

Thinking on it more, Hendrix surely needs at least a mention, stuff like Machine Gun is definitely headed in the direction of hard rock/heavy metal. I remember a story of Ozzy going to see Hendrix live and thinking he (Hendrix) was awesome but he (Ozzy) was high at the time and thought that it could've just been the drugs so he went back to see him sober and realised that he (Hendrix) really was just amazing, it wasn't the drugs.

Also I don't know whether it's an urban myth or real but if Lennon really "invented" distortion on Revolution then he deserves a mention as well.

should be more mention of bands like Deep Purple and Blue Oyster Cult

I don't think so. McCartney said Helter Skelter was inspired by the Who. You're talking about 1968, so it wasn't really ahead of its time. I think it just stands out because it was such a departure for the Beatles.

You missed their first album?

I agree with you about Sabbath being the first metal act. The only contenders for me are Led Zeppelin but they are more to the hard rock side of things if you ask me.

Although categorizing bands is pretty pointless because it's up to the listener what he feels it is, atleast the borderline bands.

Also, defining metal by the lyrics (DEATH DESTRUCTION MURDER!!1) is a really, for a lack of better word - uneducated thing to say.

Dude Kill em all was released when I was 1 years old, I think I can be excused for missing it Although now its a kickass album

Well, I wasn't even born when it was released And yeah it's a kickass album! Just commented on your comment about Battery being the first thrash metal song, wich is pretty much not correct at all.

Rocka Rolla album by Judas Priest IMO. If there is a debate, it's between Sabbath and Priest. I vote for Priest because they are just so metal and Sabbath isn't.

Some say Summertime Blues is the first metal song.

Before Rocka Rolla (wich was released in 1974), Sabbath had relased five albums, so that fight Sabbath wins hands down. Also anyone of those Sabbath albums are a ton more metal than Rocka Rolla if you ask me. And I say this as one that loves Judas Priest aswell.

When I listen to Sabbath it still amazes me that it was written in the late 60s/early 70s

My vote has to go to Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath from the album Black Sabbath. The 1st song, on their 1st album. It is very heavy. Creepy lyrics and that spine tingling "devils" note in the intro. It may not be as fast as some might like to hear. But as far as "heavy metal", imo, this song started it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akt3a...eature=related

An early contender would have to be Rumble by Link Wray from 1958.

You can listen to it being played on an original 45 (!) here.