Let me know when Charlie Sheen starts taking Mystery's advice on picking up women.

Almost all poker books are ****. If you go into a large bookstore, you can find hundreds of poker books. Maybe 5 to 10 of them will be worthwhile. The rest will teach bad habits and misconceptions.

What does "do decent" mean? How often do you have sex with a new partner? How much time do you spend pursuing women? What proportion of women you approach do you go home with? Etc, etc, etc.

And of course, how did these numbers change after you studied PUA material?

Your personal experience has nothing to do with scientific validity. And no, in science mileage doesn't vary, results must be measurable and reproducible in order to be scientific. The claim that something is effective in improving performance with women is a testable, predictive claim. It can be verified. It's not about anyone's personal experience.

Funny, this isn't true for most successful people in most fields. In science there's plenty of free material - for example, there are numerous free physics courses online, lots of talks and lectures by top specialists in a variety of fields, and so on. Experts in legitimate fields usually want to spread their knowledge and understanding and give back to the community. Even businessmen often make quite a show of philanthropy. But scammers and marketers? Nah, not so much.

Yeah. And kitchen utensils, dietary supplements, porn movies... But not psychology textbooks. Last I checked.

If you're suggesting that it's more like poker than like psychology, then many of my objections go away (as long as you can admit PUA isn't science, we're getting somewhere). But there are still some incongruities. Legitimate goods usually do have some respected products that are universally recognized. Complete scam products such as homeopathic remedies, psychic services, and so on are another story.

Anyhow, most people who study poker remain losing players.

Red Queen and Sperm Wars just aren't that applicable.

Sure, this I agree with. The question is whether PUA is any help at all, and if so, whether it's the kind of help people need.

Well, that's not such a bad one. I think a general comfort with silence and an understanding that silence can be used (and that there is no requirement to always be talking) is an important part of social interaction in general.

Okay, and what makes this PUA instead of just general advice for guys? How does it reflect the general value of PUA?

Are you denying that Mystery and Style have had a large impact on what the PUA scene is all about? I mean, maybe you like Juggler and maybe he really is a decent guy, but it doesn't seem like he's representative of the PUA crowd.

Again, none of this sounds like the PUA that I know. But some insightful advice doesn't make a coherent body of knowledge or technique, which is what many in this thread are claiming PUA is. Do you deny the claim?

As far as I can see, no results are documented. If you're a psych major, you should understand how important it is to get some real controls in place. The number of biases potentially involved with self-reports of the effectiveness of these kinds of techniques is just staggering.

And no, the 3rd law of thermodynamics doesn't say the simplest explanation is always best. Occam's Razor suggests that, given two models that make exactly the same predictions, the model with fewer extraneous elements is more useful. That's often misinterpreted as "the simplest explanation is best." But in many cases (especially in psychology), that just isn't so. And I don't view PUA as especially "simple" anyhow.

Also, post-hoc explanations are basically always unreliable. Anecdotal evidence is just plain always unreliable. Even a detailed case study can never lead to conclusive results.

Using your reasoning, we would still be working with the four humours. Seriously, people were absolutely convinced that bloodletting worked. It wasn't until we actually started measuring outcomes and applying controls that we discovered it actually did harm. The patients were certain that it helped them, when in fact it was killing them. This is the power that treatments have on human beings, and psychological treatments are especially susceptible to these effects (the placebo effect can have a massive impact in many cases, and cognitive bias routinely results in subjects having misconceptions or even false memories).

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.

"Funny" is relative. For any joke you can give me, I can find you a whole subculture of women who hate it. Some highly general social skills are applicable across a range of situations, but the differences are huge. You aren't going to find a technique that is successful in a trendy hot spot, a leather bar, a goth club, a library, a church, a hip cafe, a political rally, a fitness center, an AA meeting, and an inner-city street. I'm sorry, but if you think there is a single technique that works in all of those venues, then you're kidding yourself.

Also I mentioned the differing objectives. If I'm looking for a one night stand, then my first priority is to find women who are open to one night stands. That's really all I need, if I can find women in a general setting who want to have anonymous sex, then I'm set.

And if I'm looking to have fun with an extremely attractive woman, it's a whole different ballgame. Now I need to understand how to establish rapport without being too forward too fast, I need to handle approaching women who get approached very often, etc.

I mean, the woman looking for a one night stand who is shy and would be considered a 4 on a scale of 1-10 in terms of attractiveness is going to respond very differently than a woman who is a 9 and is outgoing and looking for a relationship. Are you really suggesting that the same techniques should be applied in both situations?

M,

Not sure if I was arguing with you in my original post other than the point that it was more likely to be something else that is causing success. To be clear- I definately don't think "pick up" is a science. I don't think their is a formula that can be applied to work in all situations etc. Lets take the opening for example, you want to talk to a pretty girl at the bar, you have options

1. Mystery method- use an indirect opinion opener to conceal interest, use a false time constraint and rocking body language to make her think you could leave at any time and therefore have value- transition from canned opener to canned material tangentially linked to opener.

2. Ross jeffries speed seduction- basically hypnotize her somehow using patterns and get her to link memories of attractive situations to you

3. David deangelo- be cocky and funny, bust her balls, get her laughing

Those are different, but all relatively unidimensional. Jugglers point is to respond how you want to respond- he just tries to teach you the most effective way to do it. So lets say you say "who lies more men or women" and super savy girl has read the game and goes "oh my god, you are a pick up artist", now what do you do? how you react should be based on your personality and who you are, its not an act. If you are shy you may say "I know, you are totally right- i bought that book because I am shy and my friends said it would help me, but I will ignore it from now on because my friend Henry says it doesn't work on smart girls and you are clearly one of those." Now is it possible that this girl will TOTALLY blow you out and be mean? Yes it is, entirely. But think about it- do you want to be in a relationship with the kind of woman who would do something like that? I know I wouldn't. I want to date a girl who if she caught a shy guy trying to hit on her using a canned line and he owned up to it would be nice to him and not reinforce everything in the world that has beat him down into his current neurotic shyness by being mean. Now, is that post hoc rationalization for why the girl who was mean to me isn't my girlfriend now? I guess that is entirely possible, but I don't think its probable.

I do think, however, that when someone spends a lot of time studying it, and using the techniques, and the women they use the techniques on react better to them than women did before, that it is a stretch to say "gotta be something else".


"In science there's plenty of free material - for example, there are numerous free physics courses online, lots of talks and lectures by top specialists in a variety of fields, and so on."

I think this is false. There is free science knowledge out there, I don't think its the majority. And most scientists who give things away do so because they have a university job and are getting paid anyway. You pay to go to college, most books cost money. Yes some people give some things away, there is free stuff on the juggler cite. His post archive is hundreds of pages, everything in his ebook is in there. The ebook is basically the mac version of his post archives- its easier to use. He is also trying to make a living.

"But not psychology textbooks. Last I checked."

Psychoanalysis. Numerous others (rebirthing jumps to mind, hypnotherapy another as far as specific techniques) Not even saying i think these are all scams all the time, but many people do. Seriously I get your point, but you could not pick a worse example than psychology- which is still not considered a science by some, and until relatively recently was not considered a science by most.

I don't want to come off as some anti-science STS wacko, I am a firm believer in science. However, not all of my life decisions can be governed scientifically due to time constraints. I could set up experiments to figure out Gears of War tactics, but I don't. I just try my best to use pattern recognition to improve my play. So while in an ideal world we would get all these people who sell pua and run clinical trials, that will never happen. So I use what makes sense to me, and what seems to work. If rigid, formal scientific method is what you need to make a determination of "worth" than PUA fails.

"Okay, and what makes this PUA instead of just general advice for guy"

Most of the time people outside of it characterize it as PUA, not the sellers (though some do). Style calls it the male self improvement movement for example. I think in this thread we are just referring to any "product" packaged as a way to improve your ability to "get" women as PUA. I may be wrong.

I think that when you buy like the juggler e-book you are paying for
-the persons time who compiled all this insight
-them putting it in an easily digestible format
-a heuristic- a faster way to learn

"Are you denying that Mystery and Style have had a large impact on what the PUA scene is all about? I mean, maybe you like Juggler and maybe he really is a decent guy, but it doesn't seem like he's representative of the PUA crowd."

This is true, they have the most attention, and I cannot deny that they have made an impact. If we are trying to honestly assess is there some value, I think it is bad to use them as the litmus test just because they are the loudest. Also, if you read the game- style says he learns the most from juggler.

It's also a question of comparison and goals. If your goal is just to get laid, and you are a shut in, obviously following mystery method works better than what you are doing. I think it is beyond the scope of this thread to get into all the potential hypotheticals of who could need help and why and for what etc. I like juggler because i think for kind of the average american male who either would like to get women of a higher quality (determined by him) or would just like to be more social, i think it is most useful in terms of quality of material, ease of use, and general applicability.

"Again, none of this sounds like the PUA that I know. But some insightful advice doesn't make a coherent body of knowledge or technique, which is what many in this thread are claiming PUA is. Do you deny the claim?"

I do not think there is a monolithic PUA body of literature. I think a better example than poker might be MMA. There are many different styles, some fighters are unidimensional, some blend styles. Back in the day, many people had different schools they tried to brand like speed seduction, juggler method, real social dynamics etc. Much like at UFC 1 when people rolled in Boxer vs grappling. The better "pua" teachers changed and picked the best parts from various "styles".

I certainly understand the visceral "this is stupid" reaction from people who watch an ep. of the pickup artist. I have that same reaction when I watch it. I think it would be a shame though if someone who saw an avant garde d-bag masterbate into a piggy bank then went on to dismiss all art (not saying pick up is an "art" , just an analogy).

"As far as I can see, no results are documented. If you're a psych major, you should understand how important it is to get some real controls in place. The number of biases potentially involved with self-reports of the effectiveness of these kinds of techniques is just staggering..... Misconceptions".

I totally agree- if the question in the OP was "is their scientific proof PUA gets you layed/a wife" etc. I would have to say no. Anecdotal evidence is stupid as well- i agree. One thing that messes up any discussion of "pua" is that people mix in their badass internet persona and their is no real honest recounting of events. That does not mean it has to be that way, always was that way, or always has to be that way. There are a lot of pua formus that are private to avoid these kind of d-bags. They are better than like seduction 101, but they are far from perfect. And yes- the thermodynamics comment was a joke. There are a lot of people who know a lot of different pu biz and think it doesnt work, in this thread however most of the detractors are not very knowledgeable. When people have such firm convictions that they vehemently push on others I get suspicious.

I got into pua basically like this
Friend: i got this book on how to pick up girls
me: ahahahah ***
friend: no i think it will work
me: god you're an idiot
friend: well the thing is, i noticed the guy in the book says you should do XYZ, and these are things I've seen you do
me: .... go on

So i wasn't so much wow'ed by testimonials as i was intrigued. I read some stuff, thought it made sense. Read some more , tried it out, liked some of it, didn't like some of it. I think if you view PUA as a some kind of magic bullet (the blender not the metaphor) that you just buy and suddenly you have awesome frozen party drinks all the time that is clearly dumb. You aren't buying a magic trick, you are buying a guide on how to improve yourself by working hard.

One thing I do find funny that is kind of related, is almost every PUA thing has a section that is like "you won't change overnight, you need to work step by step" etc etc. And every guy i know gets the book, reads it and goes "ok see ya, i'm going to the bar to get laid" and totally ignores the part on how to learn. So I do think one thing that separates good pua from bad pua is how easy it is to learn and that is based on how good the teacher is. Even in mystery you can see at first he was just like"say this and this", now he at least tries to be like"say this, and that works because of XYZ", though xyz often does not make sense.

M,

I am puzzled by this "I mean, the woman looking for a one night stand who is shy and would be considered a 4 on a scale of 1-10 in terms of attractiveness is going to respond very differently than a woman who is a 9 and is outgoing and looking for a relationship. Are you really suggesting that the same techniques should be applied in both situations?"

In my original post I said I learned to change material based off audience, isn't this exactly what you are saying? I don't think i ever said anything that could be construed as "this one thing works in every circumstance".

Okay, well, that doesn't sound too bad. Maybe I'll look into Juggler. I know one of my major problems is with the "this is how you do it" approach, as opposed to the "how you do it depends on you and your situation, but here are some tools to help you develop yourself." If Juggler is more of the latter and less of the former, hopefully I won't have a problem with him.

I also agree about the last point. From what I've seen, much of the PUA seems like the dieting industry - nobody emphasizes the boring old hard work part, and everyone seems to promise the quick fix. Of course they always include in the fine print that the program is only guaranteed to work when combined with regular exercise.

I often roll my eyes at "dieting," but I think a focus on good nutrition is important. Maybe it's the same with pickup; the people who draw the most attention to it are often those who putting in the least effort.

I used to study alot of this stuff from I was 16 til 18. When my confidence was at the top and I felt comfortable interacting with hot women I just stopped using the stuff cause it's so unnatural and false. Now I just enjoy conversing with the girl, and if she interests me I have enough wits to be able to get her myself instead of running some awkward routines and setups.

What is the angle you are playing here pity? Trying to get girls to have sex with you because they feel sorry for you is not very effective. You open with canned material material -- get busted on it -- so the reaction is to go for pity and a complement that has no credibility.


You got busted as someone who studies PUA material which is generally viewed by a lot of women as being both manipulative and misogynistic -- why would you expect her to take any pity on you after she thinks you tried to play her?

A lot of girls would dismiss you automatically as that interaction comes off as pretty pathetic. The girls who would be somewhat sympathetic to a guy being socially awkward you manage to piss off. In the end you play is still one of pity which might lead to a few minutes of conversation but that is it. You don't get sex or GFs by making girls feel sorry for you.

Henry,

The "move" is honesty. Not every time you reveal a weakness to a woman is it you going for pity. You know a lot less about women, and people in general, than you think.

What is honest about that interaction?

Yes I tried to use canned material on you and now that you busted me I'm going to explain that I'm shy and awkward so that is why I did it but that I'm not going to do it in the future because someone told me it doesn't work on smart girls like you.

1. It is a lie since you will use this opening again -- in fact your confession is part of the opening.

2. You don't think she is smart since you have nothing to base that on -- she knows this. You are just kissing ass in a hope that she accepts the complement as a way to mitigate the damage of getting caught. It won't work -- you'd be better off not trying since it just makes it seem like you are still trying to manipulate her.

3. Your excuse is that you suck with women so you had no choice but to study PUA. You hoping she forgives you for trying canned material because of this. That is seeking pity.

Nothing you said there is true. What could possibly be more honest when she catches you using a line, than admitting it is a line? Please explain. You didn't say you weren't going to do it again. It's not canned, im not saying that should be your routine, it was an example of what you could do. She is smarter than the average bear because she knew something many women would not.

Either you have very low reading comprehension or you purposefully put words in the mouth of many of the people you respond to.

I mean, you can do whatever you want, but you should admit that 'showing dishonesty than admitting to it to raise your value as a person in her eyes' is playing a game, which is therefore dishonest.

Admitting to something that you have already been busted on is not an act of honesty.

Knowing a routine that is used by a bunch of desperate guys is not a sign of intelligence -- it just means she goes to club that needs a more discriminating doorman.

How is using a line dishonest? That is like saying retelling a joke is dishonest. Unless you say, "hey here is an impromptu opening line" you have not been dishonest by asking her a question. When someone says that is a pickup line you can either lie and say it isn't, or say yes it is. The latter is being honest. These are facts. I didn't say you should use this as a routine- say a line and hope to get busted to use the "honesty" routine, it was just an example of one possible reaction. I'm also not saying you should do any of this to "raise your value" in her eyes.

Knowing it is a line is not scientific proof of a higher IQ I guess, but I don't think that is what was implied as "smart" in the comment I wrote above. Clearly a woman who knows about "pua" is more "street smart" than one who does not. Come on Henry, your args here have gotten absurdly weak. I would love to see you write out an explanation or a recap of a time you have picked up a girl, and if you have good points I would be the first to admit it. But so fare you have said "everything anyone who could be labeled as PUA is stupid (or obvious), be aloof and buy a round of drinks (the only examples of advice I can remember you have given, correct me if I'm wrong") - same for you arturius.

Not the line, the 'opening'. Its dishonest because its all pre scripted and tries to give the illusion that it is not.

Arturius,

I can see how if you were like, "hey quick question, me and my friends were having an argument and I need to get a female opinion on something, insert bull****" that is dishonest. Just asking the question I think there is no pretense that you are doing anything other than trying to pick her up.

Ignoring if it is honest or dishonest where do you think the conversation is going to go after you tell her that you suck with women?

How do you parlay admitting to that into her wanting to leave with you?

ScottyP's example aside, I'm not convinced this is necessarily true.

I know some women have had sex with me because they found me endearing, which is another way of saying they found my geeky, "flawed" traits charming. Pity isn't the only thing such traits evoke.

Its been a little while since I've talked to girls cold but here's one I remember from last year:

I'm at a bar with a friend of mine, its a medium size, kind of trendy but not snobby place, mostly designed for sitting down. The lighting is dim, and there's no a whole lot of girls around, and girls who are around are usually with a group of guys. Usually in this spot I just forget about trying to talk to women because, frankly, i'd rather do shots with my friend and talk about war stories from nights when bars/parties were actually good. I'm sitting at a table with a friend, and there's a fairly hot blonde girl sitting in a group of about 10 people about 3m away, 7 of them guys. First thing I do is try and guess how they know each other, I do this for fun, not for any women picking up strategy or anything. 5 of them are wearing professional clothes, it was a Thursday night at 9pm so probably after work dinner and now for drinks. The rest looked like tag alongs, friends of the other people. 2 of the girls were tag alongs, and this is good.

Now the key in these spots is to not think about women specificly, but have fun. My friend and I are laughing pretty hard, we're moving around a lot and being very loud, its probably likely that everyone in the bars knows we're here to have fun. I think this is an important part, everyone in the bar probably assumes we're fun to be around based on the little information they have. We're dressed normally, some style, but not trying too hard. We're both normal looking guys, and we seem like the kind of guys you'd want to talk to. We don't look judgemental, we don't look like we have a chip on our shoulder, and our demeanor is inviting and open.

After a while, I cross eyes with a blonde girl in the other group. Crossing eyes is when you both look at each other and you look away quickly to avoid some kind of awkward moment. These are not awkward moments, they are opportunities to learn and project. If she looks at you, looks away, and tries to fake like she's doing something, this is good. If she looks away, but is slowly making her way back towards looking at you, this is good, she wants to look again. If she looks back towards someone and it doesn't draw any expression and it seems like shes rezoned back to where shes sitting, this is a strike out, in a way. Luckily for me, the girl was the 2nd option.

I see her, I'm getting tipsy, and I decide to play with her. Remember, I'm already the happy, loose, loud guy, so I've already built a sort of repore with her. She's hanging out with friends of friends, so she's probably been using some of her time to look around the room at other people, not totally focused on the group she's in now. I decide to make a hole in my beer coaster, eye sized. I talk some more, and I wait. Sure enough, she looks again. This time, I squint one eye, continue to stare at her, she keeps looking at me, wondering what the hell I'm doing. In the moment, I slowly move the coaster over my eye, and look through the hole, at her. She smiles.

This moment of immaturity may seem stupid, and maybe it is. But look at my persona, and what I'm building too. I'm regarded as loud and loose, I look friendly, I dress in not particular way, but look like a guy who has taste, and most importantly, I'm the guy who's having the most fun at the bar. Now with this moment of immaturity, I'm testing her to see if she's down with it. If not, whatever, go back to drinks, friend conversations, maybe another girl later. If so, then I reel her in.

She smiles, and makes a telescope shape with her hands, and looks at me. I grab a coin from my pocket, put it over my eye like a patch, and do a sort of pirate face. She laughs. I then give her a little 'come here' with my fingers. She hesitates for a second, smiles, and comes over. She never consults with her group, in fact, most people in her group probably think i know her. One of the guys notices but I don't think he cares.

Me: It doesn't look like you know those people all that well, do you?

Her: Ya, I don't, me and these friends (pointing at the group on the left) all go to uni, one of my friends works at JP Morgan and they were all at a work dinner, they invited me out.

Now, I could cheat here, because she had an accent, it was pretty clearly swedish (I was probably 80% sure), so it gave me a good talking point, but the last thing i want to do is sound like a douche who is like OH MY GOD YOU COME FROM SWEDEN and either a) give her 20 questions which she probably has to answer on a daily basis or b) make ******ed sweden jokes with a bad accent. I choose instead to impress her simply by being different.

Me: Why did you leave sweden?

I took a risk here, if I was less sure I probably wouldn't have made an obvious assumption, but notice I'm making two bold statements in one, I'm asking her why she left (probably a heavy topic), and I'm also guessing outright where she came from, with some arrogance. Both will impress her.

Her: Haha, how did you know I was from Sveden? I decided to move to go to uni here.

Now, once again, I stick to my principles, no boring, ****ty conversations that bore everyone.

Me: Ok, I know you hate this interview game stuff where everyone asks you a million questions, lets play a different game. to begin, you have to say the answer, then i guess the question. then you give another answer.

Her: uh, what?

Me: say "I have 2 brothers"

Her: I have two brothers

Me: How many siblings do you have? see, easy.

The rest is pretty straight forward conversation, but notice how I break it up so its not the same old routine. And no, I didn't learn this is a stupid PUA book, I just be random and see what happens. If i get weird, i back myself to recover. The key here is I want to be looking for an entry, once again, somewhere to break from the mold. Luckily for me, I had a friend who helped me.

Her: I don't know what I'm doing this weekend, I've been so busy with *blah blah*

Friend: You know what you need to do (said in fake aggressive tone), you need to apologise, on behalf of sweden, for ****ing up my weekend

Her: *somewhat shocked* what, why?

Friend: I'm being forced to see Mamma Mia this weekend.

her: *laughing* why is that my fa...

Friend: *cutting her off* abba is an abortion of a band, their songs, although I think they have a right to exist, are ****ing atrocious. Everytime an abba song is on the music channel, I have to watch those singers mutated teeth and terrible hair sing the most basic and boring melodies on the planet. Ok, you know what, I can handle that, I'm a big boy, i can change channels whenever I want. Then some girl of mine who I want to bang tells me she has tickets and how lovely it would be if we could go to together. So now in order to get laid im forced to listen to songs that sweden should have expunged from the world long before they ever got a chance to breath. So my weekend is your fault, thank you.

He then strut off in fake rage, went to the toliet/bar to get more drinks, leaving me alone. I had an awesome friend, she not only loosened her up towards us, got us talking more like friends and less like job interviewers, but also withdrew himself from the pool mentally (a girl I'm banging), and physically (left the table). The stage was set.

Me: I'm sorry about him, he has some anger management issues..... I'm working on it, I swear, in fact thats why I take him here, its like what meditation is for hippies... well.... until you showed up. You kind of broke his mind....

Yeah, stupid teenage playful flirting, but hey, it feels too good at the time

Her: *laughing hard* yes, well he is right, it is my countries fault after all.

Me: No, don't be stupid, you have nothing to apologise for *uses this moment to get closer to her and really look her in the eyes*. You will have to apologise if you don't come out to another bar with us and leave early.

Her: haha, I have class tomorrow, as much as I'd like to, I do enjoy going out around here.

The girl has given me the greenest light you'll get. She's said she'd like to go out with me, and that she enjoys going out in general. Slam dunk, get number, send her a text later.

Me: This is my area around here so I'm out around here a lot, we should crush tinnies sometime, whats your number?

Her: *laughing* crush tinnies????

Me: Now you really need my number, because your knowledge of Australian slang is lacking and only someone of my expertise could bring you up to speed. Its another way of saying "drink beer"

Tinnies is slang for beer cans, and crushing is what you do after you finished, for those who don't know. PS Lessons for hot girls only

Her: Here's my number

I take her number and give her mine. Note I wouldn't bother unless she was positive towards me, like she was. I'm not spending hours wasting my nights out pursuing girls that only gave me numbers out of sympathy or awkwardness. If I didn't like her, she'd be culled. Its important to like the girls you're pursuing (not love, like, btw), because otherwise you'll have to fake interest in her, make up a lot of bull****, do things you normally wouldn't, **** that, just go for girls you like, problem solved.

she went back over to her group, my mate came back and gave me a little high five, we drank another beer and left. I met up with her on the Saturday, we went back early to my place and I banged her a couple of times. She left to go back to sweden last june I think. I don't usually pick up many girls cold, because a) you don't know what you're getting, b) you have to work up a repore and a trust which is annoying, c) it can be difficult to read girls you dont know and it leads to a lot of wasted time. so most girls I hook up with are friends of friends. Another key: have a huge network of female friends, then you'll never need to pick up cold again. PUA doesn't teach you this stuff. Living life, being well read, having good male and female friends, and most importantly, looking at yourself in the mirror and actually being happy at the person you are is the most important. If you think sleeping with girls will give you the last one, you're going to be worse than disappointed, you're going to be lost.

Arturius,

NH. Even though you don't read PUA I am surprised that you would criticize it, you do a lot of things pua people would say to do. yes pua can't make you well read etc, but you seem to do many of the techniques people say to do naturally.

Henry,

I think 90% of what you say when you first meet a women is usually worthless fluff, you just have to get her comfortable with you and maybe make her laugh. So I don't think there is a straight line from "i'm shy" to " bang bang bang". She would hopefully say something else and you'd have to react.

Arturius,

Like it or not, probbly 95% of that novella you wrote describing that interaction could almost be straight from a pua book. I mean this in a good way.

First off, having the 'life of the party", confident, just here to have fun attitude, is mentioned in almost all pua literature because if there was one thing that most guys could probably change to improve their success with women in a bar or club atmosphere, that would be it. Now I come by this naturally much by yourself but many don't. So if pua tells those kind of people to act in this manner until they actually feel that way, is that a bad thing? Is that being fake? Maybe a little but I think this is forgiveable.

Next, your playful fun deal with the coaster was great. nh sir. If that exact scene hasn't been written about as a method already, I would be surprised. But the theme of what you did there is mentioned throughout pua literature. You continued being fun and playful, checked for interest and isolated her from her group. Once again all pua techniques that have been proven thousands of times to be successfull.

Third, when she comes over, you use information that you gathered from your observations to make "guesses" about her and her group. That is standard pua. It is a demonstration of intelligence and therefor a demonstration of higher value. Also you decided to do a different approach to the standard "interview". Although much pua material would recommend phrasing your questions as statements to continue to demonstrate higher value. such as, "You left swenden to go to the university here."
Once again, a pua technique.

Even your friend and what he did is classic pua wingman behavior. He gave you a great opening, allowed you to demonstrate higher value and go for the close.

Now ask yourself this, did you lie to her? I mean you knew that your friend did this to get you over and that he doesn't really have anger management issues. It was a cleaver response and a white lie but these kind of lies happen a thousand times in every social interaction. Those of you pointing out that it is dishonest are being dishonest with yourself. This happens daily and it is no big deal. You didn't lie to her about what kind of person you were, it was a little white lie.

Ask yourself this. If you were at a bar a week later and another girl gave you "crosseyes" and the opportunity presented itself, would you use the same coaster trick?

Trick question. If you say you wouldn't, you are either stupid or a liar. Of course you would. It worked.

That is the heart of pua. You did something. It worked. You incorporate that into your knowlegde base and use when appropriate. That is what pua is good for. People have spent a lot of time and effort trying different approaches to find out what works. They have isolated what works best and are sharing it with the world.

I tell you what, The next time I get "crosseyes" from a girl I will use that coaster thing and I bet it will work. And that is how pua got its start.

NH WP

for the 95000th time, PUA doesn't teach you how to be a human. Every step of the way in that story, I was human, I was inviting her to show affection, I was showing honesty and realism, and I was being an enjoyable person. There's no slight of hand. I talk to girls all the time, all for different reasons, this is just one i flirted with, but others it might be because I've noticed something that has nothing to do with sleeping with them. Its all about becoming a more open person who understands the social dynamics that are taking place, right before their eyes.

And its not like I was born this way, I was probably the worst person at girl ever, even through high school, its just that I feel free. PUA, to me, is anything but freedom, its a prison of thought that confines your decisions and creativity. You can argue some people use PUA groups or whatever to escape this, but I argue a deep and personal journey with a mass amount of time dedicated to critical self evaluation is the only way to truly be free. Otherwise you'll be like 95% of serious PUA guys, still in denial, and still not able to look at the mirror and understand what it is they are.

I think I might end this thread on that

You're overthinking things a little, but yeah good stuff.

I'm sorry but you have a very poor ability to predict how another person will react to your actions. People hate being manipulated. If a person suspects they are being manipulated by you, they will hate you. If they catch you, they will hate you and think you're dumb.

I don't understand how anyone can think that's a good beginning to a conversation.